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Post by mydnight on Apr 6, 2018 0:34:46 GMT
Azuresun - I proposed that they have a rule that would prevent them from being taken for free in theme. Sevvy0 at 8 points is probably not breaking anything (except the faces of the people he hits) and the same goes for Caine0. Sadly, Soles shot the idea down. Which is ironic, since the shitty free model rule is destroying their own design space.
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Kavrae
Junior Strategist
Posts: 182
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Post by Kavrae on Apr 6, 2018 15:50:37 GMT
Azuresun - I proposed that they have a rule that would prevent them from being taken for free in theme. Sevvy0 at 8 points is probably not breaking anything (except the faces of the people he hits) and the same goes for Caine0. Sadly, Soles shot the idea down. Which is ironic, since the shitty free model rule is destroying their own design space. I believe that the free model rule is absolutely ridiculous. With Ghost Fleet, I'm getting 16 points of free models with Agrimony, Hellslinger, and Rengrave. With Dark Host, I have another 16 with Tartarus and two Bane Officers. If everyone gets the same free points... it's kinda "pointless" (hah). Just increase the global amount by 15 and be done with it. Or give us a different set of bonuses that are more thematic for the individual models that they WANT us to take. If people are getting different amounts of points ... why? Isn't that a bad thing? Since ALL of these models are only ever taken in their specific theme, and 95+% of the time they're the free models taken, this completely invalidates the cost of the model. Tartarus is a powerful model that's balanced around his cost of 6? (was 8) Doesn't matter. Free anyway. Hellslinger vs Pistol Wraith being balanced against the cost difference? Nope. Only ever taken if they're free, so just take Hellslinger. Anyway, I'm kinda going off on a tangent here. I don't like the idea of the solos being intentionally above the curve. That speaks towards bad game design that I've seen other companies fall prey too. I fwould rather have them as situational "iconic faction thing on a stick" for armies that can't take said thing, IF they're willing to pay the price. Such as taking Deneghra1 in Ghost Fleet to get some much needed armor breaking if I decide to take Goreshade3 (which I do).
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gmonkey
Junior Strategist
I, for one, welcome our Infernal Overlords.
Posts: 313
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Post by gmonkey on Apr 6, 2018 18:19:18 GMT
My guess is that although everyone's scared that the new Jrs will get only 1 week of testing, they'll go into later CIDs and go through multiple versions. Everyone is freaking out so much on the CID forums about 3 of the 4 of them being overpowered that I doubt PP will push them through as-is without a good amount of testing. Will Pagani just confirmed this, saying "We will create a separate subforum once the Crucible Guard CID wraps up next Friday." He's talking about a subforum for the zero casters, starting a week from today. This means their testing will continue past the end of Crucible Guard CID. My concerns are laid to rest.
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Post by cygnarstronk on Apr 7, 2018 0:03:54 GMT
Snipe is perfectly fine if sevy0 keeps a 10 inches bubble of eye of menoth in every list. Also parasite and boundless charge in every list is pretty stupid IMHO.
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Post by bloodsplatterartist on Apr 8, 2018 2:23:38 GMT
There's been alot of talk about the new juniors over in the CID forums and I feel I agree with their general consensus. They seem really op at first glance but the strengths they bring are things that are already very prevailant in their factions without fixing any weaknesses in common tournament lista. The cryx players are having trouble coming up with a list to even run denny0 in. Menoth isn't doing much better despite sevy bringing a 10 inch EOM bubble.
Look at Caine people site him giving Haley2 striders access to snipe. That's a stong combo but what is the opportunity cost? What free solo are you swapping out for him? Is snipe worth giving up arcane shield? Or the extra focus and control area from a squire?
Poor sorsha HAS to take a heavy and the berzerker chasis is bad now so she's like a minimum 16 point module for an extra boundless because if you can't it more then once she will die thanks to her poor stats and having to be right next to the action. The best the khador players can come up with is taking her with butcher 3 but they didn't have trouble delivering him in the first place.
Honestly they all look super op and Scarry but they don't bring anything their faction doesn't already bring in spades. Cygnar already has tons of accurate long range shooting. Cryx has tons of ways to debuff armor. Almost every khador caster already has a speed buff and sevy is just all over rthe place. Now if they had swapped spells around and given Cygnar parasite khador snipe, menoth boundless charge and cryx a mat buff bubble I'd be signing a much different tune but right now they all just feel like unnecessary icing on a cake.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Apr 8, 2018 3:03:33 GMT
They seem really op at first glance but the strengths they bring are things that are already very prevailant in their factions without fixing any weaknesses in common tournament lista. That's a very good point. Poor sorsha HAS to take a heavy and the berzerker chasis is bad now so she's like a minimum 16 point module I dunno, I think the CID Berserker jacks are not so bad. A Mad Dog or Rager could be worth taking. Probably not as worth taking as a Charger or Firefly though.
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Post by bloodsplatterartist on Apr 8, 2018 3:26:51 GMT
I guess with boundless a mad dog can use fleet to threaten 12 inches but then he's rolling up with 2 mat 5 pow 14 Wich doesn't feel worth the points to me.
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Post by Azuresun on Apr 8, 2018 9:12:56 GMT
Snipe is perfectly fine if sevy0 keeps a 10 inches bubble of eye of menoth in every list. Also parasite and boundless charge in every list is pretty stupid IMHO. Fine when the Big Four are playing against each other, maybe. Against everyone else who didn't get their power level raised?
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Post by oncomingstorm on Apr 8, 2018 10:14:32 GMT
Snipe is perfectly fine if sevy0 keeps a 10 inches bubble of eye of menoth in every list. Also parasite and boundless charge in every list is pretty stupid IMHO. Fine when the Big Four are playing against each other, maybe. Against everyone else who didn't get their power level raised? This.
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moquan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 193
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Post by moquan on Apr 8, 2018 10:24:51 GMT
Fine when the Big Four are playing against each other, maybe. Against everyone else who didn't get their power level raised? This. Since when is PoM part of the big four?
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Post by droopingpuppy on Apr 8, 2018 12:32:54 GMT
Azuresun - I proposed that they have a rule that would prevent them from being taken for free in theme. Sevvy0 at 8 points is probably not breaking anything (except the faces of the people he hits) and the same goes for Caine0. Sadly, Soles shot the idea down. It is good to hear, for it would add a chunky component on something that is already chunky. That said, it is sad to hear that they are need an impact for them. Why what they intended to do is end up with kicking the other's place?
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Post by Soul Samurai on Apr 8, 2018 13:20:02 GMT
I guess with boundless a mad dog can use fleet to threaten 12 inches but then he's rolling up with 2 mat 5 pow 14 Wich doesn't feel worth the points to me. Oh, I don't think you'd cast Boundless Charge on the Mad Dog. The Mad Dog would just trample around as per it's usual MO. You would save BC for your caster's jacks (or whoever you brought S0 to support). Also the CID brought the MAT up to 6, I guess we'll see if that actually sticks.
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Post by Aegis on Apr 9, 2018 0:37:08 GMT
I still think they are all bad for the game...
First, because they are still a power up for 4 factions while others get nothing equivalent, and that is unfair.
Other than that, spells "on a stick" are bad for the game, and will haunt us for a lot if released like that.
The interaction of an extra buff on a whole army are too much to test well enough in just 1 or 2 weeks. They tacitated most by nerfing the biggest offender (Nemo3), but I'm not convinced it will be enough to make Snipe on a stick fine in Cygnar...
As an example, Dynamo strikes me as a piece that shouldn't have Snipe on it, expecially in a list with whatever Nemo... Not only Nemo3 now gets a 21" threat on something that could melt colossals at range in the right conditions, but even Nemo1 with his 4 focus, Locomotion and free rerolls seems to make it an abusive piece.
Stormstriders seem another piece that don't feel right with a 18" gun, and some casters like Sloan or Siege1 seem to be prone to other mean interactions... What should we do? Nerf all of them if they after prove to be problematic (or even just unfun to play against?)
Sure, there are casters in Cygnar who have snipe, but are all casters that do nothing to improve the ranged damage, and often are even pretty mediocre in general. Another bad effect of this release will be making them totally obsolete... Who wants to play Caine 1, if Haley1 and Caine 0 can do everything he does but better?
That without counting that Snipe on a Stick pushes again Cygnar in the "turn 1 deployment shooting" whinestorm... We was just out of it with the Hunter nerf, but now practically everything with a decent native RNG can do that with Haley2, without forgetting that Snipe is cumulative with Fire Group, and we happen to also have Fire Group on a stick with the Trencher Jr (is Granadier ok with RNG 16" in lists of every caster?).
In general, the big problem is that if they release it like that, every future Cygnar release will have to take in account that Snipe can always be there... Any future caster ability will be balanced with Snipe availible in mind (a ranged assassination caster like Caine2, as an example, will not be possible unless he is another Caine, since Snipe on a caster like that would be totally OP), and same goes for every jack and unit...
We have already passed it... Cygnar still hasen't a medium base multiwound unit in faction after 15 years because we have Arcane Shield on a stick, do we really want another Damocle sword like that limiting our ranged design space from now on?
Same things goes for other factions and their buffs. Menoth things will always keep low MAT/RAT, because giving them good values in addition to EoM would be too much... Future Khador caster will not be able to push speed too much, because BC will always be there, and Prowl in the faction will always be considered equivalent to Stealth from the developement point of view...
It's a bad idea, and we will feel the repercussions of it for a lot...
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Post by mydnight on Apr 9, 2018 2:44:56 GMT
I still think they are all bad for the game... Agree with most of this, particularly design space for the future. Snipe is not as bad as arcane shield, but adding more to the list of auto-includes it bad for the long-run health of the game. With regards to Eye of Menoth, I think it's something PoM needs, but would rather they solve it in the PoM Cid by fixing some jacks rather than the much more difficult to balance Sev0, who also incidentally comes with Road to War.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Apr 9, 2018 4:00:26 GMT
I will gladly forgo the feature that able to put Arcane Shield on every list, if I get the durable heavies and save Storm Knight from their victim stat.
It remindes me the damned Mage Hunter Strike Force and the damned Mage Hunter Strike Force Commander(curse on you) in MKII, that their presense makes Retribution casters stay at mediocre level. Only after the nerf on them and make them a unit that is acceptable on the game, Retribution gets some better tools on their caster line. I don't think that it is good.
The only reason to let junior is he is a support model, unlike infamous Storm Lances.... However, I don't think that every single Cygnar list can have a heavy warjack with ARM 22 seems good that much. As a Cygnar gamer I know there are many ways to bend it because I have seen many games that my ARM 22 Stormclad is simply dismantled. But you know, not all lists can answer against ARM 22 warjack.... or struggle to deal with it. Even for me that taking a Stormclad almost all the time, taking out an ARM 22 warjack/beast is not so easy, for a swing of the generator blade will makes about 4 damage per hit unless you have a damage buff or ARM debuff. It is true that there are some ARM skew tricks and damage buffers/ARM debuffers, but Cygnar can do this on every lists and is not bounded to a caster....
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