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Post by streetpizza on Apr 2, 2018 18:19:51 GMT
Hmmm the hyperbole is strong with this thread. Some of the things you've listed do actually have their game plan neutered by immunity fire but a some of them do not. The following in particular: Feora3 - Her game plan does not hinge on applying fire and she does so much more than that. A small part of her kit is turned off but she can still perform her primary function for her lists. Feora3 completely loses her feat, one of her abilities, her ranged attack is totally useless, and her two offensive spells are also useless. I disagree. She become wholly reliant on Redline and Incite. I think, instead, youre being too optimistic here. Again, there's a certain amount of patent dishonesty in arguing that rendering a feat totally ineffective is no big deal. It's especially true here. 20pt heavies without ranged attacks....like Avatar, but withou Gaze. By tons, you really just mean EI exemplar spam. Because thats it. Meanwhile, CG can easily bypass clouds and Ashen Veil, and Magic Guns negate Vindy's feat and Passage. Most offensive spells are rendered useless, as are most ranged jacks (barring innaccurate ones). Youre pretty much down to idrians, which trancers can handle silly easily. Read: just play EI and hope for the best. Because zealots are also negated. Maybe you do FM just paladins, but i to CG gunlines youre actually just gonna get shot up. Lots to unpack there and unfortunately I don't have the time to get to it all. When you say things like EoT is just like avatar but without the Gaze you're just making my hyperbole point for me though. Also if you only see EI as our only non fire option then that's just sad. Amon with jack spam, CM with double idrians, Harby with solo spam (yes losing the feat here is no big deal), Thyra with daughters and flame guard and I'm sure I'm missing others. Also as previously stated not everything in CB is immune so those abilities won't be 100% useless. I will say I'm not thrilled at having an immunities based faction but lets keep things in perspective.
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privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
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Post by privvy on Apr 2, 2018 18:36:03 GMT
EDIT: Replying to Proven, not Pizza
I think that's an important thing to note that he's worth well above his 20 points (I've never had him 1 rounded, and maybe he was 2 rounded in a third of the games I've played him in) and he does give a theme benefit in a decent area around him. I might try him out of theme again if we are not given another theme with the CID, but right now he looks good with the Revelator in the Guardians theme with Malekus.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Apr 2, 2018 19:36:25 GMT
We must simply play in different ways and/or metas then, because I've never had him survive getting attacked.
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Post by paradox on Apr 2, 2018 21:43:08 GMT
Feora3 completely loses her feat, one of her abilities, her ranged attack is totally useless, and her two offensive spells are also useless. I disagree. She become wholly reliant on Redline and Incite. I think, instead, youre being too optimistic here. Again, there's a certain amount of patent dishonesty in arguing that rendering a feat totally ineffective is no big deal. It's especially true here. 20pt heavies without ranged attacks....like Avatar, but withou Gaze. By tons, you really just mean EI exemplar spam. Because thats it. Meanwhile, CG can easily bypass clouds and Ashen Veil, and Magic Guns negate Vindy's feat and Passage. Most offensive spells are rendered useless, as are most ranged jacks (barring innaccurate ones). Youre pretty much down to idrians, which trancers can handle silly easily. Read: just play EI and hope for the best. Because zealots are also negated. Maybe you do FM just paladins, but i to CG gunlines youre actually just gonna get shot up. Lots to unpack there and unfortunately I don't have the time to get to it all. When you say things like EoT is just like avatar but without the Gaze you're just making my hyperbole point for me though. Also if you only see EI as our only non fire option then that's just sad. Amon with jack spam, CM with double idrians, Harby with solo spam (yes losing the feat here is no big deal), Thyra with daughters and flame guard and I'm sure I'm missing others. Also as previously stated not everything in CB is immune so those abilities won't be 100% useless. I will say I'm not thrilled at having an immunities based faction but lets keep things in perspective. So EoT vs a fire-immune foe has a non-functional gun. Its a 20pt melee heavy. I would be VERY wary of Amon into a debuff gun faction. Ive played lots of Amon. Thats not something he loves. And the low-count brick is tough into scenario play. Ive also played a good deal of CM to know that. Ive similarly played plenty of daughters. Better hit hard that turn you Ambush. Otherwise youll be debuffed and dropped. TFG are flat chumps, no one is really worried there. Harbie solospam is something Ive played the least. Guess thats maybe a shot? Dunno Either way, its my experience related to obvious CG lists. Hardly hyperbole.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Apr 2, 2018 22:22:55 GMT
Pretty sure that was supposed to be double Idrians FM, since CM can't take two squads of them. Not discounting, just pointing that out.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Apr 2, 2018 22:51:05 GMT
People who are supporting Exemplar Interdiction are doing so because they are looking BEYOND just getting through the fire immunity. CG, as a whole, is tanky as hell against range but can be slaughtered in melee, especially when you are talking Knights on the charge. It's bad enough that they are signing their own death warrant by not focus firing an entire group, as the +2 str and mat amps up their 11 weapon master swing to 13 weapon master + mini feat for an additional di equating to 3.5 x 4 (5 on the charge) + 13 being their average damage roll when CG's heavies only have 18 armor, meaning only 20 with shield... for those who don't want to do the math, that's an average of 27 PS after roll, 30.5 on the charge, slamming even their heavy armored jacks for 7-10.5 boxes a piece. Persay you kill half a unit of knights (leaving 3), they'd still be able to put 21-31.5 boxes of damage into an armor 20 heavy WITHOUT spikes. Total cost? 14 pts if you want the mini feat, 9 without. CG currently has a lot of medium based infantry with 5 or so boxes, but with 16 armor, 1 normal swing would already be doing 4-5 boxes of damage without spikes. Include cleave from attachment along with overtake and pair it with Kreoss2's feat for auto hit and an additional strike... yeah, Exemplar Interdiction can easily wipe out the vast majority of their lists, especially when all of our jacks end up getting blessed weapons ^-^
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 3, 2018 3:27:46 GMT
People who are supporting Exemplar Interdiction are doing so because they are looking BEYOND just getting through the fire immunity. CG, as a whole, is tanky as hell against range but can be slaughtered in melee, especially when you are talking Knights on the charge. It's bad enough that they are signing their own death warrant by not focus firing an entire group, as the +2 str and mat amps up their 11 weapon master swing to 13 weapon master + mini feat for an additional di equating to 3.5 x 4 (5 on the charge) + 13 being their average damage roll when CG's heavies only have 18 armor, meaning only 20 with shield... for those who don't want to do the math, that's an average of 27 PS after roll, 30.5 on the charge, slamming even their heavy armored jacks for 7-10.5 boxes a piece. Persay you kill half a unit of knights (leaving 3), they'd still be able to put 21-31.5 boxes of damage into an armor 20 heavy WITHOUT spikes. Total cost? 14 pts if you want the mini feat, 9 without. CG currently has a lot of medium based infantry with 5 or so boxes, but with 16 armor, 1 normal swing would already be doing 4-5 boxes of damage without spikes. Include cleave from attachment along with overtake and pair it with Kreoss2's feat for auto hit and an additional strike... yeah, Exemplar Interdiction can easily wipe out the vast majority of their lists, especially when all of our jacks end up getting blessed weapons ^-^ The biggest issue there is delivering the knights into a gunline. Caster like Testament can do it via hard attrition and forcing the army up the board, but other casters may struggle: Vindictus: Feat as primary delivery tech combined with true path. Sadly, lots of magic weapons in CG. Thyra: Guns are bad...really bad. Hilariously Durst has some game there though, because his feat and decel help deliver the knights exemplar and Boundless of models like Gravus or a sanctifier or templar is legit.
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Post by paradox on Apr 3, 2018 12:25:35 GMT
Durst has tools to deliver a force, but hes a giant brick, so scenario can get rough quick.
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Post by paradox on Apr 3, 2018 13:18:27 GMT
Other than struggling on scenario, I was pretty pleased with this Durst list.
Theme: The Faithful Masses 1 / 1 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Stockpile - Steamroller Objective
Anson Durst, Rock of the Faith - WJ: +28 - Hierophant - PC: 3 - Reckoner - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 16) - Reckoner - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 12) - Templar - PC: 15 - Templar - PC: 15
High Paladin Dartan Vilmon - PC: 0 Paladin of the Order of the Wall - PC: 4 Paladin of the Order of the Wall - PC: 4 Paladin of the Order of the Wall - PC: 4 Champion of the Order of the Wall - PC: 8 - Champion of the Order of the Wall (Continued) Champion of the Order of the Wall - PC: 8 - Champion of the Order of the Wall (Continued) Vassal of Menoth - PC: 3 Vassal Mechanik - PC: 1 Wrack - PC: 1 Wrack - PC: 1
Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 3, 2018 16:37:08 GMT
4 Jacks seems hard for him to run. But otherwise I like it!
You could drop a Reckoner and a Pally for a Max Idrians unit with UA. And that might give you an additional free solo so you don’t have to drop the pally.
Might help with scenario too
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Post by paradox on Apr 3, 2018 17:01:32 GMT
4 Jacks seems hard for him to run. But otherwise I like it! You could drop a Reckoner and a Pally for a Max Idrians unit with UA. And that might give you an additional free solo so you don’t have to drop the pally. Might help with scenario too Probably true. If the pally champ kept Leadership Retaliatory Strike, it would have been even better..... I DO like the 4 heavies because it goes into such a brick skew that way, but idrians would probably make scenario alot better. I'd be tempted to drop a templar over a reckoner though, just to keep the boostable gun. Worth a try either way.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Apr 3, 2018 22:47:47 GMT
I was also worried about Kreoss2 not having enough defensive tech to work with knights only, as generally the errants or skrimmishers are strong enough deterrent to keep the enemy at bay. In CG, though, so many units have carapace that pee-shooter guns aren't going to stop them from running up and making a massacre. In the ideal, you'd have 2-3 units of Knights and be able to deliver about 4 a piece with a charge. With 3 units of knights, the +2 arm that Kreoss2 can give a single unit would be fine enough, as after they are engaged the other 2 units can go in and have their fun (depending on the board). However, if you look at Kreoss1, you'll notice that he has Defender's Ward... yum. You couldn't be as offensively powerful as you would be with Kreoss2, but Kreoss1 has enough tech for a delivery... now if only we could get that +2 str and mat buff to happen when an Exemplar model or Exemplar Knight model died instead of a model that is part of the unit x.x
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