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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Mar 29, 2018 12:09:37 GMT
My apologies for the slightly click bait title, but I hope the actual content of this post might give some food for thought.
In the CID forum there is a lot of discussion about particular lists that pose a problem for Crucible Guard, the poster child list is the Gaspy 3, 9 Slayer Build, but it could be any list that hard counters ranged armies by stacking massive amounts of armour.
Some people seem to be under the impression that Crucible should be able to have a game into those hard counter lists by just stacking enough buff/debuffs, and powering through the armour at range. One rationale that is given for this is that otherwise Crucible Guard are forced to take a dedicated melee list in their pairing.
However the whole point of those hard counter lists is that gunlines are meant to be bad into them, I would argue the game needs lists like Black Industries that prey on gunlines, in order to keep them in check, otherwise it just devolves into gunlines being the best way to play full stop.
So all players when building a pairing are asked the same question: - What do you drop if your opponent has a hard counter to gunlines?
So if you do want to play a list that is a gunline, you are forced into pairing it with a melee list to drop into hard counters. This is something that is universal to all factions, and is just an immutable (and necessary imho) mechanic in this game.
So where does this leave Crucible Guard?
So most factions have a deep enough stable of models that when building their 'melee list', they have plenty of options to choose from. However because Crucible is a limited faction, that is also a predominantly ranged faction, they have very limited options when it comes to building their 'melee list'. Their dedicated melee options are:
- Toro - Assault Troopers - Mercenary Unit
What this means is that when building their mandatory melee list, they are severely restricted in their options, which does not lead to enjoyable or creative list pair making.
Now Grymkin which are the other limited faction do not have this issue, because they are primarily a melee faction, the only real ranged things they have a the Frightmare and Hollowmen, pretty much everything else is melee.
So have PP by creating a limited faction that is so heavily geared towards guns, inadvertently put that faction in a situation where they are forced to take a list in their pairing that has so few options available to it, and is a result is boring and/or frustrating to build and play?
so for a TLDR summary, I think Crucible suffers from the perfect storm of: - being a limited faction - being extremely focused on guns - a game which needs hard counters to guns, and as a result requires a list pair with a dedicated melee list
The result of which is that Crucible is left with a boring and/or frustrating list pairing process
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Post by killroundears on Mar 29, 2018 12:22:54 GMT
i think a locke battlegroup focused list may potentially suffice for the role. Another option is the lukas or syvestro with double assaults and a mercenary unit. Both bring compelling options to the table such as Lukas' cloud wall and assassination threat, or syvestros amazing toolbox.
their melee orientated list could easily run Magnum Opus and go for a 2 free model build and try to increase the amount of smashy warjacks they have too.
Personally, i'm not worried for them just yet. i think the tools are there to build a primarily melee focused list in Magnum Opus (Lukas, Syvestro), or a Prima Materia one (Syvestro, Locke)
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Mar 29, 2018 12:29:32 GMT
i think a locke battlegroup focused list may potentially suffice for the role. Another option is the lukas or syvestro with double assaults and a mercenary unit. Both bring compelling options to the table such as Lukas' cloud wall and assassination threat, or syvestros amazing toolbox. their melee orientated list could easily run Magnum Opus and go for a 2 free model build and try to increase the amount of smashy warjacks they have too. Personally, i'm not worried for them just yet. i think the tools are there to build a primarily melee focused list in Magnum Opus (Lukas, Syvestro), or a Prima Materia one (Syvestro, Locke) Sorry just to clarify, I am not saying Crucible cannot build a good melee list, they absolutely can, my concern is that their options when doing so are so limited, that it is not fun to build list pairs for them, as one of your lists is kinda pre-determined
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Mar 29, 2018 13:35:29 GMT
I actually have a bit of the opposite view. I like that there can be an arm skew that isn't an auto win into CG gunlines. CG being the only faction that can take down that type of list is actually a bit interesting, because then it adds a corner case into list building. It's maybe a 50/50, but then the Cryx player has to determine if the other list they bring can likely handle a CG list more than 50% of the time.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Mar 29, 2018 13:48:25 GMT
I actually have a bit of the opposite view. I like that there can be an arm skew that isn't an auto win into CG gunlines. CG being the only faction that can take down that type of list is actually a bit interesting, because then it adds a corner case into list building. It's maybe a 50/50, but then the Cryx player has to determine if the other list they bring can likely handle a CG list more than 50% of the time. The problem with that is that if Crucible Guard can take down the best anti-ranged counters in the game, using ranged elements, then when that Crucible list goes up against a list that is not a hard ranged counter it will just wipe the floor with it.
Gun lines have an inherent advantage in this game, as they can often forgo the usual piece trading that melee forces, if even dedicated anti-gun lists cannot stop a Crucible Gun-line, then Crucible Guard gun lines will just stomp everything
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Mar 29, 2018 15:13:58 GMT
I'm not sure this is a huge problem, nor am I sure there's much that can be done about it. CG has access to a pretty wide variety of Merc units to help shore up their melee presence and potentially add some variety (Do they do anything that would help the Devil Dogs? Literally never seen those guys on the table...). Grymkin is a pretty similar place if they want to build a gunline, basically forced to play either King of Nothing Frightmare Spam or Witch Hollowmen spam.
At any rate, at this point I'm not sure what can be done. The model concepts are made, they can't pull another melee unit out this close to production. Hopefully various Merc options and/or Locke are enough to keep things flexible.
Oh, just occurred to me, isn't Llael getting CID soon? Might be that some new options become available for CG.
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bundeez
Junior Strategist
Posts: 325
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Post by bundeez on Mar 29, 2018 16:03:43 GMT
If CG getting boring to build/play down the road is your concern, I wouldn't buy into it because it's gonna happen no matter what. It's a limited faction - look at Convergence and Grymkin = pretty much same lists you meet due to the limited selection and themes. What I think the overall aim from PPs side is: Sales. People get bored of their main faction from time to time. Sometimes you buy a new unit or play around with crazy lists you don't usually run or sometimes you buy a new faction. Before you started out small with a few purchases here and there but now you can buy a limited faction have fun with that for 6 months, then go back to your main faction which just had a recent CID perhaps. I'm pretty sure buying a new faction once in a while is more attractive to PP, than merely buying a new unit or two for your main faction. And I can see the benefit: To go for a new limited faction is more interesting than staying in your main faction, and still cheaper than buying a new full faction. Just buy the 2 net-lists and go from there. Perfect design So no I don't think it's a flaw, I think it's intentional. It's interesting enough that people want to play it, but not so imba that it can beat everything (which you commented upon earlier).
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Choco
Junior Strategist
Gorten, best feet in the game.
Posts: 571
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Post by Choco on Mar 29, 2018 16:24:29 GMT
Oh, just occurred to me, isn't Llael getting CID soon? Might be that some new options become available for CG. Not on the books yet. Plus we just got a minor one during the Christmas CID last year. We won't see one for a few years at this rate. We are getting one indirectly in the next CID - Exemplars.
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Post by Trollock on Mar 29, 2018 18:50:10 GMT
@op You are forgetting Trancers imo. They really change the Slayer Match up if you bring a bunch of them. They bring both control and solid damage output. They also help you move things out of zones if you cant kill them all. 4Trancers4Life
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Mar 29, 2018 19:02:48 GMT
Oh, just occurred to me, isn't Llael getting CID soon? Might be that some new options become available for CG. Not on the books yet. Plus we just got a minor one during the Christmas CID last year. We won't see one for a few years at this rate. We are getting one indirectly in the next CID - Exemplars. Isn't mercs getting one soon? I could have sworn it was Llael...
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Choco
Junior Strategist
Gorten, best feet in the game.
Posts: 571
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Post by Choco on Mar 29, 2018 19:03:47 GMT
Not on the books yet. Plus we just got a minor one during the Christmas CID last year. We won't see one for a few years at this rate. We are getting one indirectly in the next CID - Exemplars. Isn't mercs getting one soon? I could have sworn it was Llael... Exemplar sort of. Privateers (pirates) are getting the last one that is currently scheduled after the Tharn CID.
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Apr 2, 2018 13:54:20 GMT
Choco is 100% right about the CIDs. I actually have a bit of the opposite view. I like that there can be an arm skew that isn't an auto win into CG gunlines. CG being the only faction that can take down that type of list is actually a bit interesting, because then it adds a corner case into list building. It's maybe a 50/50, but then the Cryx player has to determine if the other list they bring can likely handle a CG list more than 50% of the time. The problem with that is that if Crucible Guard can take down the best anti-ranged counters in the game, using ranged elements, then when that Crucible list goes up against a list that is not a hard ranged counter it will just wipe the floor with it.
Gun lines have an inherent advantage in this game, as they can often forgo the usual piece trading that melee forces, if even dedicated anti-gun lists cannot stop a Crucible Gun-line, then Crucible Guard gun lines will just stomp everything
I think it depends. Being good at taking down ARM Skew doesn't mean it can take down swarms or recursion or cloudwalls, etc. It might be a gunline type list that just happens to have a different hard counter. ARM Skew is not the only hard counter to a gunline, and the CG one could be a type of list that performs well into the traditional gunline counter and bad into something gunlines are traditionally good against. It also could be a problem, but I think it requires more testing.
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regleant
Junior Strategist
Sometimes things go right
Posts: 267
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Post by regleant on Apr 5, 2018 14:11:19 GMT
Isn't Crucible Guard a Mercenary "faction" that will have its own theme lists? Much like Dwarves and Cephalix, you can take any 2 Merc armies to a tournament. With that broader picture in mind, no, I don't think that Crucible Guard should be expected to solve every problem out there, as they are merely a piece of the Mercenary faction. That said, as a long time Farrow player, I don't touch Gators. But that's my personal choice...
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Post by Charistoph on Apr 5, 2018 14:41:51 GMT
Isn't Crucible Guard a Mercenary "faction" that will have its own theme lists? Much like Dwarves and Cephalix, you can take any 2 Merc armies to a tournament. With that broader picture in mind, no, I don't think that Crucible Guard should be expected to solve every problem out there, as they are merely a piece of the Mercenary faction. I wish it was. They aren't considered part of the Mercs for tournaments any more than a Kingmaker's list is considered Cygnar or a Cephalyx list is considered Cryx.
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Apr 5, 2018 14:46:10 GMT
Isn't Crucible Guard a Mercenary "faction" that will have its own theme lists? Much like Dwarves and Cephalix, you can take any 2 Merc armies to a tournament. With that broader picture in mind, no, I don't think that Crucible Guard should be expected to solve every problem out there, as they are merely a piece of the Mercenary faction. That said, as a long time Farrow player, I don't touch Gators. But that's my personal choice... They are not Mercs, they are Crucible Guard. The Toro and Vanguard are also Merc jacks and the Llaelese Resistance theme force can take Crucible Guard models the same way it takes Cygnar or Protectorate models. Additionally, one of the Crucible Guard casters is also a Convergence caster. They are a stand-alone faction, just one that happens to have a lot of overlap.
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