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Post by Azuresun on Mar 29, 2018 13:44:42 GMT
Test and report. Yeah, the more im thinking of it, the more i think they might just have made the "unplayabe" models good, like the "playable" models. If you apply a 4 point ARM swing (rust/withering and disintegration/gearhart feat) to an ARM 20 colossal though, Aiming CGI will do over 120 damage to it with oil. That is 2 dead conquests from one unit shooting. Lots of moving parts, but still... looks scary. More or less scary than the Vlad1 Autopilot Gunline, do you think?
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Mar 29, 2018 17:13:12 GMT
So here's my takes on Week 4:
Lukas - the mechanism is a nice add on, both fluffy and utilitarian. I like how it doesn't mitigate raw damage directly, but rather it does mitigate future raw damage. I don't think it is strictly NEEDED, but the flexibility is awful nice.
Gearhart: I like the changes to Arms Caddy and Johnny on the Spot, makes for less clumping especially if you opt to take Alyce along. Snipe over Molten Metal is QUITE the upgrade. Snipe opens up a lot of interesting combo's. CGI or Stormtroopers get pretty cute, and the the Vindicator also gets good mileage out of it. In addition, Gearharts own personal threat can be upped if needed. Just a lot of utility with that, and some pretty nice ability to pump up ranged threats in general. Generally speaking i still dislike the Feat all in all, however that said, his kit is otherwise shaping up nicely. Definitely want to test out some things on the table.
Locke: Overall i think i like the change to her feat.
MacKay - I would have almost preferred they keep the oil shot and found more ways to make it interesting. Perhaps it was abusive with the Fire sprays, etc., not sure, didn't feel that way to me. A both magic and incorp stripping shot is great for those games you see a pair of wraith engines or something similarly corner case, and will be Meh most other times. Preferably i'd rather have seen a magic weapon (not all, just one), say the cannon perhaps, on Railess and MacKay, and kept either the oil shot or have a more utilitarian shot introduced on MacKay. The upgrade back to 4" AOE was certainly necessary in my estimation.
Retaliator - The loss of the fire spray and replacing it with the oil spray is very, very bizarre given that they took the oil AOE off of MacKay. So Now MacKay will want to take Retaliators, and i suppose other casters will want to take CGI with this, but it just seems like an odd decision to remove the primary damage motivator off of this light jack for a support aspect function. I suppose i end up feeling relatively flat, to thinking its a minor net negative - it has some combo ability, but it was nice to have a fire attack and corrosion attack at your disposal.
Vindicator: The upgraded shot is good, it wont get used every game, but being able to strip incorp is nice when you need it.
CGI: ARM 14 basically = can weather blast damage slightly better than before. A POW 12 still kills on anything other than snake eyes. Nothing earth shattering, but firmly in "sure, why not" territory.
Rocketmen: this is where the changes start becoming really interesting to me.
Strafing Run: I like this order a lot. It maintains your inherent "run" speed (7 + 2 + 5 vs. 7x 2), but maintains combat action. Cute. I like it. With Swift Hunter from the attachment that means, potentially, an advancing and attacking Rocketman can actually move more distance than a running model. That's pretty cool. I also enjoy the +2DEF order as well.
Rocketman Attachment: Swift Hunter can get an advancing / attacking rocketman to actually move FASTER than running, which is cool, and Dodge is a great thing to combo up with the +DEF order. The minifeat helps get those gravity bombs up into the respectable zone given the other damage buffs the faction can muster.
I have to say, i really like this incarnation of Rocketmen. They might be a little too total-packagey though ; they can make themselves a pain in the ass to kill, and with the minifeat and applied debuffs, can start hitting hard as hell. Still, they are way more interesting than the previous chaff jammers they really were.
Rocketman Attachment with Slug-gun: Jack hunter - Fer real? Heck yes. PS16 (minifeat) +3d6 vs warjacks is really nice, and its not difficult to bump that 18+ depending on caster. Very skewed towards anti-warmachine, but still, the combination of the changes to rocketmen make them REALLY attractive now.
Rocketman Ace: Heh, i just noticed that the Rocketman doens't have cumbersome on his bomb. Interesting. The addition of Brutal damage is really nice on the bomb and makes these guys a pretty mean threat with a variety of different lists and loadouts.
Vulcan: Point drop to 36. I suppose its good though he felt like he made an impact at 37. I wonder if the point drop opens up any previous "just one point too many" type combos.
Honestly, there's a lot to test here.
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Post by Trollock on Mar 29, 2018 18:47:10 GMT
Feels like the changes were basically "please play Gearhart, CGI and Rocketmen". Not necessarily at once, but those pieces were questionable previously, and now they are solid at the very least. Rocketmen suddenly became very solid stand alone (as opposed to "unplayable except possibly with Lukas"). They will be nifty. I like the fast moving stuff. Makes for fun games. They are now the clear choice for a front line unit if you do not want to bring Halbardiers.
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Mar 29, 2018 19:11:00 GMT
I agree, Rocketmen are superlative right now. I have a strong suspicion they won't stay that way, but hey look great. The Ace also went from objectively complete trash to actually pretty decent.
I don't really like the changes to the Retaliator however. I enjoyed that fire spray immensely. That said, it does make for a good support piece for Suppressor's and CGI (and MacKay).
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Post by killroundears on Mar 29, 2018 20:36:43 GMT
I agree, Rocketmen are superlative right now. I have a strong suspicion they won't stay that way, but hey look great. The Ace also went from objectively complete trash to actually pretty decent. I don't really like the changes to the Retaliator however. I enjoyed that fire spray immensely. That said, it does make for a good support piece for Suppressor's and CGI (and MacKay). Honestly i used the corrosi9n grievous spray all the time. Corrosion is better vs arm 14+ single wounders and grievous on a spray is grievous on a spray
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Mar 29, 2018 20:52:59 GMT
I agree, Rocketmen are superlative right now. I have a strong suspicion they won't stay that way, but hey look great. The Ace also went from objectively complete trash to actually pretty decent. I don't really like the changes to the Retaliator however. I enjoyed that fire spray immensely. That said, it does make for a good support piece for Suppressor's and CGI (and MacKay). Oil on the Retaliator is a massive buff imho. Crucible Infantry can reach pretty obsene levels of damage and accuracy under Baldwin now.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Mar 29, 2018 21:26:42 GMT
Just wanted to do a quick breakdown of how much damage and accuracy Crucible infantry can achieve with Gearhart.
Damage Buffs Oil for boosted damage Withering Humour/Rust +2 Fox Hunt +2/+2 Minifeat Dual-Shot Dark Shroud - Situational +2
Accuracy Buffs Veteran Leader +1 Aiming (Easy to do with RNG 16) Bloody Well Done - boosted attack roll for first attack War Tempered - can CRA into melee
So leaving Dark Shroud and War Tempered to the side for now, a full unit of infantry can get:
22 x RAT 8, Boosted pow 15s, at RNG 16, 11 of which have boosted attack rolls as well.
I will admit that is the extreme example, and requires feats and other models activation's. However it is still 22 Defender shots at RAT 8 (2 technically will be RAT 9 from the Officer), with fully boosted damage. That is pretty damn crazy.
Lets say we were to be shooting into melee with War Tempered and 2 man CRAs, they go to effective RAT 10, and can get up to boosted pow 19s with Dark Shroud, with some of those attack rolls being boosted as well.
Plus Baldwin can knock stuff down for them with his Catalytic Detonator, or reduce it's defense with his Ingression Catapult. so they probably don't even need to CRA to hit in melee, which means you could get 22 x boosted pow 17s.
Against a conquest say, each Infantryman does 5 damage (assuming the average on 3 dice is 10, and it's dice off 5 with pow 15s) a conquest has 62 damage. so 13 shots will do 65 damage on average, so 22 shots from a single unit are not far off taking down 2 Conquests.
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Mar 30, 2018 14:22:43 GMT
I agree, Rocketmen are superlative right now. I have a strong suspicion they won't stay that way, but hey look great. The Ace also went from objectively complete trash to actually pretty decent. I don't really like the changes to the Retaliator however. I enjoyed that fire spray immensely. That said, it does make for a good support piece for Suppressor's and CGI (and MacKay). Oil on the Retaliator is a massive buff imho. Crucible Infantry can reach pretty obsene levels of damage and accuracy under Baldwin now. So i was thinking about this last night, and i actually agree. Initially i thought of the retaliator as a mini suppressor with more of a damage role with some support functions. What they've done, elegantly i might add, is dial up the support aspect while only goosing down the offense ever so slightly. It's a really good change all told. Still weird that they stripped oil off MacKay, but whatever. EDIT: also don't forget ice cage for your calculations for the CGI. killroundears - no agreed, the corrosion spray is certainly nice. I just really, really liked the fire spray, but ultimately its redundant with the suppressor (which i take anyhow), and this actually gives me MORE reason to play the retaliator. I liked the retaliator previously but often found it was the first thing i cut in list construction. Now its got some builds where its pivotal. These are good changes both for combos in the faction, and for the jack's role overall.
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Post by gobber on Mar 30, 2018 22:29:39 GMT
Crucible Guard CID Update #4.5
Today, 12:41 PM An update for the weekend!
Aurum Adeptus Syvestro: Changing Super Fuel to no longer only affect warjacks (or even battle group models) should help incentivize both Prospero and Railless Interceptors with Syvestro. Change Super Fuel to: Super Fuel - Friendly Faction constructs currently within 5˝ of it gain +2 SPD this turn.
Marshal General Baldwin Gearhart: To remove the confusion about initial attacks and how Arms Caddy functioned we took all of the guess work out of it. We are aware this is a slight functionality change. Change Arms Caddy to: Arms Caddy - Once per activation after making his initial attacks during his Combat Action and while within 5˝ of Mr. Clogg, Gearhart can replace his ranged weapon with one of the weapon’s on Mr. Clogg’s card. This effect lasts until Gearhart is affected by Arms Caddy again.
Crucible Guard Assault Troopers: As the staple melee option in the army we felt FA 3 was reasonable for the Assault Troopers. FA 3.
Crucible Guard Rocketmen: Evasive Maneuvers is a very potent ability - we felt that having 100% access to this ability was a bit overpowering for the unit, so it was moved to the Captain. Cut Evasive Maneuvers (Order).
Crucible Guard Rocketman Captain: Evasive Maneuvers was already the name of a rule in Warmachine. It has been renamed Defensive Action and is now located on the Captain. Mission Objective was proving that Rocketmen were simply too efficient at killing enemy models, especially when stacked with other effects in the faction. It's removal should return the unit to a reasonable place. Cut Mission Objective. Add Defensive Action (Order). Defensive Action (Order) - Until the start of their next activation, affected models gain +2 DEF and do not suffer blast damage.
Prospero: Increasing Prospero's command should let him run melee warjacks a little more consistently and make him a more enticing robot. CMD 8.
Railless Interceptor: Since the changes to Mackay we felt the Railless was not quite performing up to snuff. Reducing its point cost should help it see its way in to more lists, and hopefully with casters other than Mackay. Cost 16.
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Post by mydnight on Mar 30, 2018 22:34:18 GMT
Bah I agree with the changes but the loss of mission objective is huge.
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Apr 1, 2018 14:17:57 GMT
Honest question: has anyone, for the point of anything other than being a complete insufferable contrarian, actually said or thought "God, this damned FA:2 on Assault Troopers is positively ruining my freedom of list design."
Assault troopers are pretty good, but i simply cannot fathom a situation where i'd want 3 units of them. There's no way in hell you're going to take that in Prima, and i cannot fathom with the depth and breadth of Opus' choices why you'd opt for 3 units of these guys. i mean, ultimately it hurts nothing, but it's one of those things that just left me scratching my head.
The overall changes to Rocketmen are good honestly, they were a tad much in week 4.
The point cost downward on railess is interesting, as is Syvestro's super fuel affecting all constructs.
increasing Prospero's CMD to match his CTRL is a nice quality of life improvement (I.e. - is jack in control ? Jack gets vet leader).
Regarding Gearhart: i'm at the point of near complete fatigue trying to make this gun swapping shit work. That said, i think this is literally the closest they have come yet to making this a reasonably easily understood collection of rules. I really hope we don't see future changes to Arms Caddy / Johnny, or anything to do with this gun swapping stuff, because its getting a little tiresome to try to figure out how to make an abstraction work on the table (i.e. - Clogg handing Gearhart a gun) without opening up timing issues and confusion regarding core rules etc.
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Post by gobber on Apr 1, 2018 18:21:38 GMT
I'm definitely liking the option for a third minimum unit with Gearhart
Gearhart+Clogg -Toro, Retaliator, Vanguard Gorman, DBR, Ragman 3x Min Assault Troopers Min Storm Troopers Min Rocketmen+cap'n Max CGI+UA
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Post by Trollock on Apr 1, 2018 19:04:36 GMT
I'm definitely liking the option for a third minimum unit with Gearhart Gearhart+Clogg -Toro, Retaliator, Vanguard Gorman, DBR, Ragman 3x Min Assault Troopers Min Storm Troopers Min Rocketmen+cap'n Max CGI+UA How come you like min units with him? two maxed units are slightly more cost effective and they take buffs better. Sure, in this particular setup the points work out fine, but did you laugh with joy that you can now take 3x3 guys rather than 2x5 guys?
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Post by gobber on Apr 1, 2018 19:30:21 GMT
I'm definitely liking the option for a third minimum unit with Gearhart Gearhart+Clogg -Toro, Retaliator, Vanguard Gorman, DBR, Ragman 3x Min Assault Troopers Min Storm Troopers Min Rocketmen+cap'n Max CGI+UA How come you like min units with him? two maxed units are slightly more cost effective and they take buffs better. Sure, in this particular setup the points work out fine, but did you laugh with joy that you can now take 3x3 guys rather than 2x5 guys? Gearhart doesn't have any unit buffs for melee troops, just auras which work just as well either way. The cost difference is small enough that I prefer the ability to spread out and activate more flexibly (I suppose it's better against enemy upkeeps). Snipe and BWD! are usually going on the CG Infantry, so the min rockets head up a flank and the min stormtroopers just stay close enough to enjoy vet leader and decel. Still needs testing, but that was the reasoning behind it.
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Post by killroundears on Apr 2, 2018 11:41:41 GMT
Honest question: has anyone, for the point of anything other than being a complete insufferable contrarian, actually said or thought "God, this damned FA:2 on Assault Troopers is positively ruining my freedom of list design." Assault troopers are pretty good, but i simply cannot fathom a situation where i'd want 3 units of them. There's no way in hell you're going to take that in Prima, and i cannot fathom with the depth and breadth of Opus' choices why you'd opt for 3 units of these guys. i mean, ultimately it hurts nothing, but it's one of those things that just left me scratching my head. The overall changes to Rocketmen are good honestly, they were a tad much in week 4. The point cost downward on railess is interesting, as is Syvestro's super fuel affecting all constructs. increasing Prospero's CMD to match his CTRL is a nice quality of life improvement (I.e. - is jack in control ? Jack gets vet leader). Regarding Gearhart: i'm at the point of near complete fatigue trying to make this gun swapping shit work. That said, i think this is literally the closest they have come yet to making this a reasonably easily understood collection of rules. I really hope we don't see future changes to Arms Caddy / Johnny, or anything to do with this gun swapping stuff, because its getting a little tiresome to try to figure out how to make an abstraction work on the table (i.e. - Clogg handing Gearhart a gun) without opening up timing issues and confusion regarding core rules etc. Considering lukas has to pay the healer tax to keep himself chugging a third melee unit behind his cloudwall seems great -- if playing for melee rather than a gunline. Syvestro could appreciate a third one too potentially. More transmute targets = less problems
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