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Post by macdaddy on May 21, 2018 20:26:16 GMT
Ossrum is tough. And that dead scenario makes it harder to play effective into a list that will typically just grind you down thanks to his absurd feat. I agree with your assessment of your mistakes though! Its interesting to see how other people deal with him.
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mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
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Post by mazog on May 21, 2018 20:38:43 GMT
How has Ossrum not dominated the Meta enough to get nerfed? He's probably the best support caster I've ever seen. I suppose this is like minions getting great warlocks because the troops have to be balanced in all the other factions, but I still don't understand how he hasn't abused the meta enough to get nerfed.
Edit: my local Merc player quit in the transition, so I haven't had much exposure lately, but this question has bugged me every time I have read about that guy.
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gdnerd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 656
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Post by gdnerd on May 21, 2018 20:45:49 GMT
GGWP and condolences on not taking the entire thing.
Kolgrima was never going to be played bc both lists took assassination off the table and if you played Borka2 my only way of dealing with massed infantry in her list (Winter's Tide) would be 100% worthless.
I was unsure which list you'd play, there were cases for both.
Once you won the roll-off I knew I was going to have a bad time of it. Double Fire Eaters Max Raiders is a large amount of top of 2 bully threat. In retrospect I think I needed to feat bottom of 1 but I hate doing that so much - I'd much rather use it to heal (as I did that game). I think if you failed to kill the King it would have been a coin flip - I'd be behind on scenario but I could have made a play for attrition and hopefully get to a point where I'm scoring 2-3 a turn to your 0 but it depends on me being able to Jackhammer down the Mauler and push forwards into your EBDT and remaining Raiders where Borka could kill either some Champs or the Glacier King but not both and the other would kill him.
I've started tracking all my competitive games / games with local players who play competitively and I have a 100% winrate going first but a sub 40% winrate going second. Unsure if this is personal play or list construction but it's definitely a big focus of my play going forwards. How have you felt with your lists when going first? I feel like both your lists have longer "reach out and touch you" factor which helps to mitigate the downside of going second.
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Post by LoS Jaden on May 21, 2018 21:12:02 GMT
macdaddy - Yeah Ossrum is a monster. I've beaten him before, but Cory is an excellent player and he really played to his list that game. Most people wouldn't put the Dwarves soooo far back, nor would they screen with the 'jacks I think. I'm definitely intrigued. I've been slowly building my Merc collection and Ossrum is very tempting. It's frustrating in some ways to look back at that game though, I felt pretty good about it at the time and now I'm just kind of appalled at how I played it. mazog - he's insanely good. I'm really not sure why he hasn't seen more play or why more people aren't afraid of him. I'd say he's in the top ten casters in the game right now. gdnerd - I figured that Kolgrima wasn't coming down, and you've outlined exactly why. Winning the roll off to go first was very important, I agree. I think that the Madrak 1 builds really suffer if they don't get the first turn of running unmolested. I really don't know how the game would have gone with the Glacier King still in play. Going back, I think that pushing the Mauler into him that turn was perhaps unwise, but I also wasn't sure I wanted to stay passive and let you run and Jackhammer. I'm not totally sold that he gets to jackhammer down the Mauler before he activates though - Madrak would have had to heal two aspects (likely) and then only get three Jackhammers at dice - 1. The Mauler also doesn't freeze thanks to Field Marshal...hmm..yeah I dunno, theory machine is pretty pointless at this point, but it certainly would have been an interesting game. 100% winrate going first? dang that's impressive. I think that your disparity largely has to do with list construction. Both of your lists lack a way to project board control outside of spells or glacier king guns, so when you go second I imagine you always feel like you have to make bad trades to stay in scenario? What are your thoughts there? One of my favorite things about my pairing is how bloody fast it is. I had to go second against Butcher 3 AND Slayer spam at the open and in both games my opponent had to respect my threat ranges and not come forward as far on turn 1 as they could normally go.
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gdnerd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 656
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Post by gdnerd on May 21, 2018 22:03:16 GMT
That winrate going first would be more impressive if I did it >30% of the time lol.
Sprays, projection, and bears. Normally I don't ambush either set of bears but Standoff made me feel like I needed the flank pressure.
I think if I hadn't bricked up my Champs as if the melee element mattered that would have also limited the damage.
Butcher3 isn't all that fast as long as you control where butcher himself can go. Champions with stone match his jacks threat outside of Ruin, and beat him with the help of Lanyssa. And if he sends in Butcher without killing the Glacier King, the King WILL kill the heck out of him.
Gaspy3 is a lot trickier, he's actually reliably faster, and with Combo Strikes as an option they can do some real damage to any defensive profile. Still, when I played Keith I felt like I got to control when engagement happened (though I was running double Fire Eater single Champs back then). A single charging Champion under stone does 19.5 assuming both strikes hit, so you can pretty reliably trade up with the help of a Fel Caller. A large part of why I lost to Keith was I let him Hellfire down the Krielstone which led to the Glacier King dying / champs failing to kill a slayer due to no more strength aura. If you feat and put everything just out of walk range from him so he can trample if he really wants to, I think the Madrak matchup is just fine going second. Admittedly this requires you using the bears to contest any easy elements / tie up their front line but I think it's a worthy trade if you feel that eventuality is on your side.
As for the Jackhammer scenario, I can do 4 jackhammers if I need to heal twice, 5 if only once (Runebearer). I also can hit with Madrak himself for another 5.5 damage with a charge if it'll help. The not freezing is definitely annoying and misses on 6s could make things go off the rails pretty fast. Irregardless if I can kill both your beasts and all forward jamming models between Madrak, GK and Champs I can start pressing into you and hopefully get you into full board-cede-or-die mode. But again we are over a week past the game and theorymachine has a limited value. That was just my plan for if things had gone my way.
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Post by LoS Jaden on May 22, 2018 19:27:35 GMT
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gdnerd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 656
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Post by gdnerd on May 22, 2018 20:32:44 GMT
Interesting article. I'd attribute this in large part to the value of scaling effects ATM (Gaspy3 Mobility, Madrak1 Even Ground, Old Witch Windstorm, et cetera) which care about the # of models they can catch within their sphere of influence. Hell, it's always important for Hordes because beasts basically always have to be within control but the game seems to be relying on them especially at the moment. Feats are often this way but it seems like the amount of non-feat effects that care about your Warcaster/Warlock holding the center are greater than they used to be.
Holding the center lets you get the most bang for your buck in terms of your sphere of influence overlapping with scenario.
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Post by LoS Jaden on Jun 11, 2018 17:45:52 GMT
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Jun 12, 2018 0:32:29 GMT
This cracks me up. I like it a lot and I'd try it myself if I had the models. I don't like our weapon crews, though. I feel like they are always too little too late. If I'm also willing to give up the Feralgeist, I could play the much better Razorback Crew instead. Or Eilish, for Puppet Master. Either option basically trades a little scenario presence for a little more assassination tech. How did you like Braylen in this list, with no Highwaymen?
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Post by LoS Jaden on Jun 12, 2018 22:23:25 GMT
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cuberic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
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Post by cuberic on Jun 12, 2018 23:15:07 GMT
Mantrap is an amazing spell. 4" auto knockdown (warrior models) that costs 3 fury.
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Post by Trollock on Jun 13, 2018 6:39:33 GMT
Im not strictly following your blog, but i must say i appreciate the work you put in to showcase your games. The best way to learn is to teach, and i hope that for you (as it does for me) reporting on your games is not only fun and useful for us readers, but also gives you deeper insight in to your own games. The fact that the rest of us also get to partake of the insight is a nice added bonus for everyone.
Keep up the good work!
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jarrow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 274
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Post by jarrow on Jun 13, 2018 7:40:31 GMT
Really good to see someone else like my list as well. I had actually Pummeler in stead of Thumper in my original list. Weapon crew is indeed free so fell caller is basically on model you can trade it to. And spd4 RNG16 is enough to be on action. Original list topic
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Post by LoS Jaden on Jun 13, 2018 15:13:19 GMT
Trollock - thanks man! Yeah I do these reports largely to do a ton of self analysis. I only get to play games about once a month at tournaments, and this practice is what I credit my relatively good placements at major events over the last year. It's not a substitute for real games, but it's the best I've got for now. jarrow - I am absolutely in love with this list. I haven't played anything quite like it, and it's a real mind bender for people. I can definitely see the Pummeler, but I think the Thumper crew is correct when the list already has a TON of infantry clearing potential. The POW 16 slam gun is situationally amazing.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Jun 14, 2018 0:54:41 GMT
Well, to make it work you have to select the Elder as a freebie, and I can see how that might not seem optimal. You mentioned Lynus & Edrea, but I could see going with the Mist Speaker instead, as a battle engine with Eyeless Sight and all Magic Weapons (including mount) could be pretty nice. conflictchamber.com/#c7201b_-0D59iWjqeC0k0mk8i_j3hUhUTrollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Kriel Company [Grim 1] Grim Angus [+29] - Sea King [36] - Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)] Braylen Wanderheart, Trollkin Outlaw [0(5)] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (min) [6] - Stone Scribe Elder [0(3)] Lynus Wesselbaum & Edrea Lloryrr [5] Pyg Lookouts (min) [7] Hearthgut Hooch Hauler [18] Trollkin War Wagon [16] Trollkin War Wagon [16]
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