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Post by onijet01 on Mar 11, 2018 0:21:27 GMT
Hey everyone, ill cut to the chase of my personal issue. I dislike the warpwolf frame.
Yes i know they are great models for damage, threating, and high def. I know that they bring a large utility per model.
But... i dislike them. Love the fluff, dislike the models play.
Yes sounds odd as i know all their good points.
But i want to play Satyrs. I have a small soft spot for these slower, pillow fisted beasts. But i love them. The look, fluff, and well thier rules.
I know wolfs hit harder but i want to play goats.
My primary list is kaya 3 (i think its her) and i love loading up 2 goraxs, razzoring gryphons (love the trample bot and end game), and i run alot of satyrs.
I love buldoze on kaya 3, i love my counter charges. But i wanted to ask the community about their personal veiws on the satyrs. Not for extreme competitiveness (as wolfs are better) but as a general enjoiyable play
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Post by Forsaken on Mar 11, 2018 2:25:17 GMT
I so badly want the gnarlhorn to be awesome. I love the (old) model and often put him in lists, usually inspite of my experiences with him. And then he fails to accomplish much. I'm becoming resigned to the fact that he is a 12 point slam-bot who I bring so my high def caster can't be knocked down or made stationary. But it sucks. Has anybody else noticed that Hunter's mark doesn't do anything for his slams? In fact because of how slams work he threatens half an inch less then he does on his regular charge. He's a spd 5, def 12 beast without pathfinder in a faction supposedly known for being fast and agile so what's his tradeoff? At def 12 arm 18 with 26 boxes he's pretty fragile. Cygnar has light jacks that cost 2/3 what he does that are more survivable, Trollbloods have lightbeasts that are as well. Even Circle pretty much does with the Woldwatcher (who also brings his animus). His threat output is just good enough to be decent with a buff. He can sometimes kill fast things with a mat buff or sometimes kill hard things with a damage buff. Counterslam is extremely frustrating because it's almost impossible to use, except occasionally with admonition, hence nobody else has it. I so badly want him to be awesome, but he's not, he's kinda ok.
Rant over.
Shadowhorns, Riphorns and Brennos are kinda cool though. I do think the best way to get value out of all 4 satyr is through Kaya3.
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Post by frumiousbandersnatch on Mar 11, 2018 5:58:08 GMT
"At def 12 arm 18 with 26 boxes he's pretty fragile. (...) are more survivable, Trollbloods have lightbeasts that are as well." Citation needed.
I assume you are talking about the Bouncer. At 3/4 the cost of the Gnarlhorn it is 4 fewer boxes and is 1 more armor (including the shield), rather similar durability. The Bouncer is mediocre in its faction, the Gnarlhorn is bad in ours.
By all means, play goats. The Shadowhorn is good, the Gnarlhorn is mediocre, I don't really know what to say about the Riphorn. The goats themselves are decent enough, but the support available to them in Circle is rather anemic. They are neither fast, nor durable, nor especially accurate or strong. They are cheap, though, but nothing like how efficient the budget Jacks in warmachine are costed (thought it makes sense because the goats all have weird janky rules and abilities tacked on to justify a point cost their lame stats never could).
If you limit yourself to only playing one kind of model you are needlessly handicapping yourself, no matter what type of model that is. I don't get it, but play how you want. If you play only goats you will struggle. If you played only warpwolves you would struggle. If you played only lights or only flying beasts you would struggle (Una2 not withstanding...). Pick the right model for the right job and leverage the synergies available to you. Or handicap yourself by playing only one kind of model or ruling out sections of models. Whatever is more fun to you.
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Post by Evola on Mar 11, 2018 6:30:56 GMT
I've been playing a single Riphorn in my Kaya 3 lists with great success. Bulldoze is amazing and the chain attack rule is great. Of course it needs support but with Kaya 3 and /or Rage it punches realky hard. And at a not TO steap price.
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Post by macdaddy on Mar 11, 2018 7:11:33 GMT
I've been playing a single Riphorn in my Kaya 3 lists with great success. Bulldoze is amazing and the chain attack rule is great. Of course it needs support but with Kaya 3 and /or Rage it punches realky hard. And at a not TO steap price. Do you mean primal? Haha The Riphorn would be so much better if we could deliver it better. It effectiveley gets 7 attacks at P+S 15 every time it goes in. With primal and another +2 buff/Debuff he hits at P+S 19. Averaging around 45 Damage to a Khador Heavy when fully loaded that’s...really impressive. The issue comes when you: 1: miss an initial 2: try to move across a Board with relevant terrain. SPD 5 no pathfinder is...rough. Especially for us, because we have no tech in faction to mitigate that statline. Hunters mark kind of helps, but the lack of pathfinder can be almost crippling. Also, even with hunters mark, the thing only threatens 11” so most other things in the game with a decent speed buff will out threaten it making it difficult to trade with. It wants to be our budget trading peice, but because of its low speed and Lack of pathfinder it ends up being a second line retaliatory heavy, and what’s sad is, at 14 points, it’s only a point or 2 below the “average heavy” cost so it’s not even that great when you start comparing to things like the Mauler, Earthborn, Titans, Cage Ragers our there it starts to just look less appealing. What’s sad about comparing it cross faction is, in faction support for those heavies are better because of speed buffs and access to terrain mitigation. It’s always funny to me that the Forest faction has a harder time delivering its living beast stable through some rubble and Shrubs than the “We were raised in SAND” faction.
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Post by sirk on Mar 11, 2018 11:36:18 GMT
I think the Shadowhorn is one of the most fairly priced heavy we have: good nonlinear threat, throw shenanigan, decent survival, nice and situational animus. I play one in almost all my living beasts list. With just pathfinder he would be perfect.
The Gnarlhorn needs his old animus back. That's just it.
The Riphorn is at odd place: beatstick in a faction where everything move faster. Someone in another post suggested giving him bulldoze as default and Still as Death (countercharge) as animus and I really liked the idea. That would also help defining the Satyr: medium weight heavies for defense line (set against charge, counterslam/charge) with toolkit animus.
Sorry, I was almost forgetting Brennos. Well, Brennos needs a redesign. Yes, another one, but this time for good.
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Post by Evola on Mar 11, 2018 11:47:29 GMT
Primal of course 🤣
And you are correct on the terrain topic. It might be a meta thing. Regional thing? You know what i mean. We play with 7 pieces regularly. Los blocker in middle. 2 forests, hill, wall, trench. Something like that. Just to give a mental picture.
I run my goats in the side with less terrain obviously which makes it predictable of cigar course.
Delivering it: Second wave striker. They run behind the rest of the beasts. Id like to run it up front but.. Spd 5....
I hope I made any sense at all? Im out walking at the same time as I'm typing
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Post by Evola on Mar 11, 2018 11:53:03 GMT
I think the Shadowhorn is one of the most fairly priced heavy we have: good nonlinear threat, throw shenanigan, decent survival, nice and situational animus. I play one in almost all my living beasts list. With just pathfinder he would be perfect. Decent survivability? Can you explain that one to me? I hope you have an answer i don't. It dies to a misdirected sneeze every time I play it😋
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Post by macdaddy on Mar 11, 2018 14:02:35 GMT
Def 15 with set defense, Def 17 with set defense and Kaya 3’s Feat is pretty darn good. Also, Def 17 under Kaya’s feat and Fog of war
Def 15+ is pretty much boost or hit for every Heavy in the game. Arm 17 is high enough that unless the Heavy is Pow 20, it’s defense can keep it alive.
Eg: Blackhide wrastler Unser Jaga. Signs and portents + rage:
Charges: Boosts to hit, (2 fury burned) Mat 6 needs an 11, it’s a 50/50 roughly with signs and portents. Even assuming it hits, he only gets 2 more Boosted attacks that need 9’s. I think if it hits the charge attack and a second attack even under S&P the gator does about 11 Damage with the charging bite, and about 8 more with the unboosted claw. And should miss the 3rd swing. Doing a total of 19 Damage and leaving your goat alive.if it misses the charge attack, you will be in even better shape.
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Post by maplewhisky on Mar 11, 2018 14:22:50 GMT
Def 15 with set defense, Def 17 with set defense and Kaya 3’s Feat is pretty darn good. Also, Def 17 under Kaya’s feat and Fog of war Def 15+ is pretty much boost or hit for every Heavy in the game. Arm 17 is high enough that unless the Heavy is Pow 20, it’s defense can keep it alive. Eg: Blackhide wrastler Unser Jaga. Signs and portents + rage: Charges: Boosts to hit, (2 fury burned) Mat 6 needs an 11, it’s a 50/50 roughly with signs and portents. Even assuming it hits, he only gets 2 more Boosted attacks that need 9’s. I think if it hits the charge attack and a second attack even under S&P the gator does about 11 Damage with the charging bite, and about 8 more with the unboosted claw. And should miss the 3rd swing. Doing a total of 19 Damage and leaving your goat alive.if it misses the charge attack, you will be in even better shape. Your S&P maths is quite a bit off. Boosted 11s normally are a 50/50. With SnP it's 73%. The smarter play is also to not make your charge attack with the bite because you're already rolling past armour with all of your attacks. So it should actually look like Charge, boost the claw, (73% to hit), rolling at dice damage on 4d6 drop lowest, then boost to hit with the Bite (boosted 9 is around 90%), boost to hit the 2nd claw. Odds are good you actually hit all 3 attacks which is actually very likely to kill the goat. Your point generally stands but heavies with multiple high power initials are quite good vs the Satyr.
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Post by Evola on Mar 11, 2018 17:52:15 GMT
The Shadowhorn. Eeh.. How and why do you play it? For the throw only, synergy build with Kaya 3,claming /contesting? Teach me 😁
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Post by oncomingstorm on Mar 11, 2018 19:06:10 GMT
The Shadowhorn is a good beast. it can get to weird places, and do janky things with throws and beatback. It's a good piece to have around for assassination plays, too.
It still needs to have pathfinder.
The Gnarlhorn is a bit of a mess. Counterslam is a super hard rule to leverage, and it's too slow (/in a faction with too few ways to speed it up) to be an effective slam bot. It also gets wrecked hard by terrain, and the animus is...only kinda ok.
It needs pathfinder and either bounding or +2" range on slams as a base ability.
The Riphorn is in a REAL bad spot, in that he's competing (unfavorably) with the feral (who also is probably 2 points overcosted). The Feral brings another source of primal, better MAT, better damage potential, more speed, and more flexibility with the warps. He may also be more survivable on average, with +4 boxes, -1 armor (admittedly only when warping armor), and +2 defense.
Assuming the Feral drops 2 points, the Riphorn needs the following:
Option 1: - Gain Pathfinder, drop 2 points (or gain +1 strength). gain Still as Death as an Animus. Horns gain crit KD.
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Post by macdaddy on Mar 11, 2018 19:27:37 GMT
The Shadowhorn. Eeh.. How and why do you play it? For the throw only, synergy build with Kaya 3,claming /contesting? Teach me 😁 Pretty much only with Kaya 3 lol It’s got really good utility. It can threaten assasination, throw heavies it can’t destroy or Molest less durable heavies with synergy and primal. It’s also pretty annoying to remove for its cost. I actually think the shadowhorn is fine and doesn’t need charges.
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Post by paradox on Mar 11, 2018 20:55:36 GMT
Leap + Throw = Goat beatings. God, I love shadowhorns. All the goats do need Pathfinder, and I could maybe see the shadowhorn go to 10-11pts, given it's fairly soft, pillow-fisted stats.
Play, like, 6 of them with a Kaya (I prefer Kaya1 for this) and just throw everything everywhere (cav nto each other, jacks/beasts out of CTRL, models into the caster) and LOL FTW while your opponent hates you.
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Post by Evola on Mar 11, 2018 21:07:37 GMT
Leap + Throw = Goat beatings. God, I love shadowhorns. All the goats do need Pathfinder, and I could maybe see the shadowhorn go to 10-11pts, given it's fairly soft, pillow-fisted stats. Play, like, 6 of them with a Kaya (I prefer Kaya1 for this) and just throw everything everywhere (cav nto each other, jacks/beasts out of CTRL, models into the caster) and LOL FTW while your opponent hates you. Haha i got a mental picture of this actually happening. 🤣🤣. Thank you.
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