Synergies between casters and models/units (theory)

I built a couple of potential lists.

The first one is meant as an all comers list. I think i might have built too heavily around Transmute (that could be the coolest spell in the game imo) since only one unit can have it at a time, but who knows... The idea is to use the Halbs and the Liberator as front line, and have the heavy infantry bring up the rear with the punching power. The Rocketmen could either be front line or try to flank or contest depending on match up.

The second list is more of an anti shooting list. Syvestro is probably not the strongest option for that, but it feels liek the list has game in to almost anything. Again, the idea is to use the lights as a front line while i bombard as many things as i can. The list still has some punch with Assault troopers and FGs, but the list is MUCH slower than the other one.

The third list is completely different. +2 SPD on jacks sounds AMAZING, and Prospero making the colossal RAT 7 seems great too. This list has a lot of output against both infantry and jacks, but will fold against a dedicated gunline probably. Scenario could be problematic, but with SPD 8 on the first turn, it might not be. I brought Assault Troopers here too, cause why not?

Did you roll hot, may i ask ?

With Feat + Rust against armor 19, i'm coming up with an average of 36 damage from stormtroopers (this assumes all hit, all roll average, all get benefit of rusted target and feat - other than the average roll part, none of those are particularly hard depending on theme and list, but hot rolls can happen with anyone). Sure Gearhart could possibly contribute two more effective 19's into that mix, for another 16 damage, but that's the caster rather than the storm troopers. 36 damage doesn't even kill 2 slayers, and you're using a feat to do it.

By proxy Lukas can do this every turn with disintegrate and forcehammer (meaning assist his peeps in maiming a heavy + each turn), and on his feat turn, woe betide.

I ask because to me right now Gearhart is the dud of the casters. I have been able to make cool, compelling lists with each of the other four casters, but i keep coming up with poop for Gearhart - and by that i mean all the ideas i want to do with gearhart, another caster can do nearly as well or better, and do other stuff on top way better than Gearhart can.

My issue with Gearhart is his feat is susceptible to intelligent positioning counterplay, Woodhouse is easy to kill and hamstrings the shit out of Gearhart if your opponent does (50% less offensive output), and the damage that Gearhart can dole out requires his feat (which has counterplay), but two other casters in faction can mostly achieve the same thing (lukas fixes accuracy with a forcehammer, followed by a disintegrate, Syvestro is a little less total package but he can opt to have a further armor or def fix) - and they both have feats on top of being able to do that each turn.

He just feels like he's trying to do too much and failing to do any of it super well.

Would you mind posting your list, i'm really interested in counter-theory. I want to be wrong about him.

Awesome discussion Trollock, thanks for engaging.


Suppressor: Agreed, Hotshot is okay with it ; my kvetch is that its singularly better with Prospero and guided fire, and as of yet i have not made a list with 2 suppressors. Really its about do you want to use sprays to hit more accurately or harder - in the context of these two spells on a RAT 5 jack, i want it to hit more reliably most of the time.

TOro: Yup, boundless charge is great for Toro, 100% agree there. I think we can safely say that Decel is fantastic unilaterally for all categories of all things (who doesn't want +2 ARM against two cardinal attack vectors) - its half his focus payload, however, and is likely to used turns 2 and 3, and the likelihood on other turns is greatly diminished. Still awesome, but i'd like to state here its awesome for everything so we don't belabor it too much. Back to boundless : TOro's with him are so far my fav, despite being ostensibly a ranged and support caster (i think he's a generalist, actually) and its really attractive to get some extra threat on these superlative melee jacks.

Vanguard: You know, i'm having trouble fitting these in ? Weird huh? I mean they're fantastic and costed right, and can bring some melee hate to bear. I just keep wanting to do things that require me to give up the vanguard. Many of my lists have 3-4 heavies in it though, so i might have to downgrade one to a Vanguard. The Vanguard can certainly help keep Woodhouse alive that's for sure - and he can help gearhart too, and provide late game solid melee through all the debuffs and stuff. Maybe i need to try getting a vanguard in.

Vindicator: With Gearhart honestly the only thing attractive here is the extra die on constructs. Hot shot is okay-ish on this jack, but just okay-ish. It would be abjectly bad but for the fact that its an AOE. Thing with hot shot is to justify the focus outlay, you need multiple damage rolls or multiple ranged attacks. The vindicator can bring a good sized pie to bear, but after the initial, the average damage roll is still going to be 17 unless you're using decrepetation - good against single wound infantry, and decrepetation would jump this up to 20-21 or so on average which will ping through on armor for a few poinst (and arguably the ability to spike high). I dunno. It just seems like with Power Up and 2 for Hotshot its investing a lot of focus into what the returns will be. Again i almost prefer this on the Suppressor, but you can't have this and GUided fire on the same jack in CG.

Vulcan: Agree 100%. However, i firmly believe Vulcan is going to change, so i'm leery of leaning on him in current incarnation. That said, if he doesn't change a lick, yep, Gearhart is one of the casters i can see definitely utilizing him. Best Target for Hotshot, without question, and that could bring some serious pain to bear. Due to speed and armor, gets great mileagout of Decel and boundless.

Prospero: Agreed - i'm finding it hard to make lists without prospero for two reasons - one, he's one of the better "takes" for the free Solo in themes, and for another he brings a lot to the table in both Guided Fire, Vet, Dispel, and Instability Equation. Just a LOT going on in this solo. Gearhart specifically helps keep him alive via Decel.

Assault Troopers: I disagree here. The assault troopers are neat, but as it currently stands in Magnum Opus i will be taking Morely-augmented Horgenhold forgeguard. You can do a bit of the same thing, though a little less on most vectors, via Assault Troopers, but your attack output is much, much less. They are less expensive however. That said, like Vulcan, i'm expecting Morely to change. 3 points for all that is , uh, absurd. I'll give Assault troopers this though, for far less points they'll threaten further than HHG, have similar or better armor on approach, and cost 6 points less - in my Lukas lists i run a liberator with the express intent that late game using ashen veil to debuff accuracy on things coming at the guard - Assault troopers don't need this as they have it inherently.

Okay, maybe i'm coming around here on these guys. I can see some utility here. I am not sure i'll like it more than 10 x HHFG at PS 13-15 weaponmaster, but its significantly less expensive than that module, and has inbound things i like in other casters. Worth a second look.

Crucible Infantry: THe extra rat does not make their guns solid, because their guns are terrible. RNG 12 is nice, POW 11 is decent, but all their shots have critical effects. Single Combined is good, but with buffs and debuffs you quickly hit diminishing returns on big ol' combined's in favor of smaller ones. They are also incredibly expensive for what they do. Gearhart offers them Decel which puts their armor from "tissue paper" into "Slightly more rigid tissue paper - a dried snot or two perhaps". The feat bumps them up decently, but again the feat has LOTS of counter play, and whatever benefit this 15-19 point moduel gets from the feat is almost certainly spent better on equivalent 13-19 points. These guys i see no place for other than a nichey gimmick with McKay. Even in Magnum Opus where they get Repo they are just "decent" - and its taking a theme and buffs to get them to there.

Railess - I can see that. I have not tested anything with Railess with Gearhart. I'll check that out - boundless is interesting, Decel is clearly good here, and they have such an attack output level that the feat is more than the sum of its parts with them unlike other things. Boundless + Dual Attack + Feat can actually do a lot of work.


Rocketmen - 100% agree. They will be too far forward to get benefit from him, and what benefit they do get will be immaterial. The one possible exception is that with the minifeat and boundless these chaps positively zoom across the map, but they'll go so far that they'll be likely out of feat range if you take full advantage, so they'll be hitting with a bunch of POW 11's more than likely, maybe 13's if you manage to land another debuff. I don't see much here.

StormTroopers - Agreed, good, but ST's are good basically everywhere. Where are you getting POW 17 before the feat ? Base 14 + Rust or Humor = 16... feat = 18. Am i missing something? Agree though in principle, good, but again, nothing about gearhart makes them shine. Decel is nifty on them but they're already armor 20 againsted ranged and free strikes, and hopefull you'll be incurring steam pressure as often as possible to keep as far away as possible. Decel here is ancillary - i wouldn't cast it to protect ST's necessarily, but if i can affect them while protecting another target i REALLY want to protect, great.

Dragon Rocket: Agreed - i try to take one in every list. Again though, past the feat, gearhart does nothing for this past Decel, and i'm not casting decel for the primary purpose of protecting the rocket (similar thinking to ST's) as i want to operating pretty far back with it).


Mercs:  Agreed, ther'es some strong options.   I personally love Forge Guard despite their weaknesses (and CG does have some methods of countering some of those weaknesses)  but Halberdiers and Press Gangers look exceptionally strong too.   This really turns on the fulcrum of Morely,  and i'm betting he changes - significantly.



So what would your two most ideal lists with Gearhart be, focusing on amplifying his kit and what he brings to the table that others can't do as well or better ? I keep coming up with support loadouts where Gearhart is supporting more than participating.... but if i'[m doing that, why am i not playing Sylvestro? Maybe i'm looking at Gearhart wrong - he seems pretty geared (nyuck, nyuck) to be a delivery support caster with some ancillary shooting. I was rather looking at him as a shooting caster with ancillary support, and getting disappointed (full disclosure, i love me some shooting casters - Caine2, Gaston2, etc). Maybe that's my issue. I want him to be a better ranged caster than he is (and he's still B+ territory there like Siege1, etc).

Yeah, if Vulcan stays the same as he is right now i can see that being interesting - of course, that's 74 points right there of your 104.

Im gonna try to get back on track though. I was going to try and wrap my head around Lukas. He is not super obvious to me, but so far, the "overview" posts have helped me a lot in organizing my thoughts. Lets see what falls out this time shall we?

He has access to quite a bit of focus during a game, and the feat turn can (in magical fantasy land) give him 8+8 focus to play with. He can knock things down and reduce ARM with spells. Iron Flesh promotes either high DEF (who care about blasts) or high ARM and boxes (to bet more bang out of the +2 ARM part). Clouds can deny shooting and melee alike, and they can also help creating a DEF skew. That is my initial impression at least.

Liberator
Seems mandatory. A spell slinger should have an Arc Node, preferably two. Also, Ashen Veil seems to stack with Burning Ash against melee attacks, so DEF 17 some times?

Vindicator
Has a strong gun that can shoot knocked down casters. Not at all sure if this is the way to go though.

Vulcan
If you knock down a caster, this model will kill it. However, he does nothing else for Vulcan, so its a very weird model for him. Either it will be mandatory, or it will be awful. I think we will land in the "no Vulcan"-corner, but i am far from sure.

Aurum Ominus Alyce Marc
Probably a good call. The longer you can delay using Juicer, the better, right?

Crucible Guard Assault Troopers
Can get the charge more easily due to the clouds and apparition. Also, Ashen veil + Burning Ash could mean DEF 15 in melee. Still not super impressive, but not bad.

Crucible Guard Infantry
I dont think these are the best choice, cause he does very little for them. If you knock down a caster though, they do POW 15 shots (assuming Disintegration and Dragons breath) and that will put casters in the dirt. Maybe you take them because of that?

Crucible Guard Rocketmen
This is probably the Rocketmen caster. Iron Flesh is fantastic for these guys. If they skirmish in a forest on the side they will be disproportionately hard to remove. You can probably play the full massive unit of them and be happy. Even an Ace for Dodge perhaps? Also, they are fast and mobile and could swoop in with POW 14 shots (assuming Disintegration and Dragons Breath) against a knocked down caster.

Crucible Guard Storm Troopers
Can also kill casters they can shoot at. Arcing Fire helps with that, and RNG 16 can allow them to shoot while not engaged. Mirrage is also a good spell on them i think. If you play a small footprint army, it is easier to hide behind clouds.

Dragon's Breath Rocket
Reliably hitting a knocked down caster (or beast) is superb. Reaching a caster can be hard though. Mirage could possibly be used even...

Railless Interceptor
Same as with the Vulcan. Meshes poorly with Lukas' abilities, but if you have a knocked down caster, the Railless can "easily" shoot it since it can bulldoze, charge and shoot while engaged. I doubt you will want to give up free solos in MO though to get a Railless, and i do not know that he plays well on PM... A solid question mark is the grade here

Mercenary Units
As of now, the good doctor seems very strong and any one can make good use of mercs. If you build the list for shooting things with pop guns, then A&H might be the thing you want. Or just some halbardiers or press gangers for a cheap fast "tar pit" to keep the enemy off you. Or Forge Guard that gets to charge because LoS was blocked to them by clouds. All of those units like both Mirage and Iron flesh as well. A dwarf cannon could help kill a knocked down caster (if they can some how reach it). A unit of mercs is probably totally OK as a complement to what ever else you run.



List Options
Again, i pull two lists out of my... you know.


The PM list has a strong assassination, but is weak on scenario. It does not utilize both IF and Mirage fully. It has strong shooting for sure, and it can kill what it gets to, but it is fairly slow. Having Vulcan on Prospero (and no shield guard in sight to boot...) is risky. If they can get around the clouds you are done... IF might even go on Prospero just in case. The plan is clearly to arc spells and assassinate. You could try to play the attrition game with clouds to help, but i think Lucas wants to play a short game. He gets one really big turn and then his abilities wane over time.

MO is different. That huge pile of flying garbage means you can contest scenario much better. You also have a strong shooting presence and you have a smallish footprint, making the clouds better. You are probably assassinate just fine early on, but i do not know that the army holds up for an extended battle. I guess it largely depends on the opponents ability to handle the rocketmen. If those hang around and pull attention long enough maybe you can grind things down. The assassination threat can force the enemy caster back, but as with any assassination based list, you worry what happens if the opponent just happens to get a forest or something to hide behind. That is not at all uncommon, and you might be hard pressed to assassinate with just the arc nodes. If the opponent think he is safe in that forest he might camp too little. Spamming disintegration with 16 focus and "RAT" 8 might get many casters. Knocking them with force hammer might be out of the options since that could push the caster deeper in to a forest and out of sight... That is actually a concern with force hammer. If you channel it to knock a caster down, the caster may now be too far away for you to reach with your other stuff... You might have to do things like run a rocket man and force hammer him in the back...

I still do not get this guy i think. I would have to put him on the table, and that is low on my priority list...