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Post by Gamingdevil on Mar 9, 2018 9:32:40 GMT
So, now that they have proposed rather aggressive changes to the Victor, Blightbringer and Archangel in the CID and many factions now looking at their own options and wishing for a general Gargossal CID like they did with battle engines, what would you think our Colossals need to see more table time?
Kraken I personally think he's ok. He hits moderately hard, his corpse mechanic is interesting and he has some decent guns and high melee threat range. If anything, I wouldn't mind him being slightly cheaper (would 32 be too much to ask?) so he would compare more favourable to our heavies.
Sepulcher Well... He has many problems, his main one is that he costs the same as the Kraken, but doesn't do enough. He's stuck at POW 19 in melee as his corpses never count for strength. His main gun is only POW 13, RNG 13, AoE 4 and relies on a dodgy critical effect to be useful. His secondary guns are what makes him interesting, but they should've remained at RNG 11 like they were at first in MK2. At range 10, if you shoot at something, you will get charged by a heavy next turn. His corpse mechanic is only useful in one single theme and said theme is infantry centered so doesn't want to spend the 36 points on a lumbering colossal. Proposed fixes would be, making his secondary guns RNG 11 again, possibly even 13 to match the big one. Big gun might be ok staying at AoE 4 because of the crit, though there is precedence for powerful effects to be on a much stronger gun (hello Hyperion) His corpse mechanic needs to change so you can use him with something else than Mechanithralls. Maybe it would be cool if he could make some sort of solo, similar to Alexia. It would probably have to be regular Brute Thralls that just count as a solo, like Spectral Legion on Asphyxious 2, though, otherwise they would have to make a new card just for this and it was never part of his original design. Having Shield Guards on demand in our living themes would definitely make him more interesting. Possibly could use a point drop as well with the middling melee output.
General All colossals being able to get 4 focus instead of the normal 3 would also help them I think, as now most cap at 5 melee attacks (when not charging) for output while costing 3 times a heavy which normally output 6 initials between them and get 3 power up focus. What would also be awesome is if the Misery Cages allowed other models to take the corpse token from them (not as focus) so they could self-fuel, but this was already proposed during the CID and cast aside.
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Post by theghost on Mar 9, 2018 9:52:46 GMT
I believe our colossals are fine as they are. They are not autoincludes but depending on the list they do have their places.
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Post by tiberius on Mar 9, 2018 11:31:14 GMT
If the side guns of the Sepulcher were the same as leviathan guns (range wise) then I would say it was worth its points. Aside from that, I would love to see either one provide some sort of support function. Yeah, the Sepulcher can create mechanithralls and brutes, but a lot of colossals and gargantuans bring some sort of utility area of effect. Maybe a stackable defense debuff? Withering smoke or something? Or go with the water theme and have enemies treat 3" around it as rough terrain?
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Post by Gamingdevil on Mar 9, 2018 12:10:44 GMT
If the side guns of the Sepulcher were the same as leviathan guns (range wise) then I would say it was worth its points. Aside from that, I would love to see either one provide some sort of support function. Yeah, the Sepulcher can create mechanithralls and brutes, but a lot of colossals and gargantuans bring some sort of utility area of effect. Maybe a stackable defense debuff? Withering smoke or something? Or go with the water theme and have enemies treat 3" around it as rough terrain? Making hard hitting shield guards is pretty good utility I'd say. Only being able to make it in a single theme (because you need to add it to an existing unit of Mechanithralls) is what is the bad part.
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Post by tiberius on Mar 9, 2018 12:34:38 GMT
Yeah, relegating a colossal to a single theme is pretty restrictive. What would be the fix as making it generate more types of thralls would still only be in that theme and expanding themes that could take thralls defeats the purpose of infernal machines. Poor design? The changes that the Sepulcher had received in our first CID, where it could gather the corpses of friendly mechanithralls helped fix its original issue I had with it, and honestly I like it and typically don't have a problem with its range, as my opponents don't play gun lines or much in the way of ranged pieces. I can see how wanting something further reaching would be desirable because softening up targets for your mechanithrall swarm is what the thing should be doing.
I have used it to great success under Mortenebra between interface and Derilyss's tune up ability, it can really put out some damage to any heavies in range. I would, on average, remove a heavy and a half per round once we got in range.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Mar 9, 2018 12:44:23 GMT
Yeah, relegating a colossal to a single theme is pretty restrictive. What would be the fix as making it generate more types of thralls would still only be in that theme and expanding themes that could take thralls defeats the purpose of infernal machines. That's why I would proposed just having the option of making the Brute as a solo (either adding to a unit or plopping it down by itself). This way you can gather the corpses of the Satyxis dying around you and still do something meaningful with them instead of simply sitting there with them. He's still limited to 3 corpses, so he could only make 1 Brute Thrall each turn. Regular Mechanithralls would still need to be added to a unit to prevent spawning too much solos (Mechanithralls are useless by themselves anyway)
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Post by tiberius on Mar 9, 2018 12:50:36 GMT
What about scrap thralls? They are already solos and necrotechs can make them from scrap parts of warjacks. Maybe give the sepulcher a similar ability to plop those out. I have done a lot of fun damage with surprise exploding thralls.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Mar 9, 2018 13:24:40 GMT
What about scrap thralls? They are already solos and necrotechs can make them from scrap parts of warjacks. Maybe give the sepulcher a similar ability to plop those out. I have done a lot of fun damage with surprise exploding thralls. I suppose it would be ok, but Scrap Thralls are normally made from Scrap tokens. There would also be some overlap with Necrotechs that are also available in BI and DH in addition to IM. It would be better than the alternative, nothing, though.
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Post by custardboy on Mar 9, 2018 22:36:49 GMT
Well scrap thralls being made from scrap tokens don't make a lot of sense anyway. Where is the necrotech getting the fleshy bits? I like the idea of him generating scrap thralls, though it would have to be playtested.
Currently the kraken is decent enough but nothing amazing. The sepulcher is really unhappy because of only being useful in one theme and being unable to use that theme's benefit. Also DJ and Malice are available in Infernal Machines so if I'm taking a very limited battlegroup, well....
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Post by grotsnik on Mar 10, 2018 0:33:48 GMT
Kraken should go down to 34-ish and sepulcher guns should be rng 13, easy and clean.
Another solution for the kraken is being able to attack frindly models to get corpse tokens, in that case it can stay at 36 or even go up to 37. Seriously, comparing it with the new CG one is sad.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Mar 10, 2018 8:48:58 GMT
The sepulcher is really unhappy because of only being useful in one theme and being unable to use that theme's benefit. Also DJ and Malice are available in Infernal Machines so if I'm taking a very limited battlegroup, well.... Exactly. If I'm playing IM, it's usually because I want Deathjack and with more infantry support than is available in BI. It's not because I'm particularly excited to play Mechanithralls and definitely not because I want to take their 36 point support colossal.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Mar 11, 2018 0:48:50 GMT
The Sepulcher is fine in a vacuum. The problem is it supports a mediocre unit that’s only available in the worst of Cryx’s 6 Themes. Fix Mechanithralls & the Sepulcher becomes a lot more attractive.
My biggest issue with the Kraken is that it’s boring. It’s a huge model that takes up a lot of transport space, and it’s just so incredibly boring to actually put on the table with every caster that isn’t Skarre2. It doesn’t really do anything special or cool that I can’t just get somewhere else outside of Skarre’s Black Spot nonsense. It’s bulky to carry around, it’s not amazing, and it doesn’t make my games more fun. I’ve nicknamed my Kraken “Disappointment” because literally every time I bust him out with a caster that isn’t Skarre2 I end up wishing I just played something else.
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Post by gedditoffme on Mar 11, 2018 1:35:22 GMT
I only have experience with kraken, but agree he lost most of his power in the edition change. He is ok with any of the skarres (pskarre has a ridiculous assassination game with 4” reach, feat and boosted to hit) but still hard to squeeze in a list (by the same token stalkers or slayers are ridiculous with the same effects). Losing effects like phantom hunter eliminated goreshade2 as an option. Many buffs to slayers and other heavies mean you don’t take him as an efficient beat stick any more. In shooting, double of the crabjacks caught up as good options that don’t need to be a focus dump to get their full potential.
There’s nothing wrong with him, you can just do better things with 36 pts in any list with any caster (arguable in skarre2 or 3). I think a pts decrease would help, still not sure it would change things (he really needs more spellcasters who support shooting) but it might make me consider it.
The Sepulcher has issues though. When you can only consider a 36 pt colossal to support a 10pt unit there are issues, especially when that unit exists in only 1 theme. I think spawning solo brutes would be interesting, and decouple him from the mech boat. Also would like to see mech thralls treated more like a “core” unit available to support half the themes. Not sure it would help Sepulcher too much though.
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Post by custardboy on Mar 12, 2018 8:37:30 GMT
Yeah just adding mechanithralls to another theme or two would help immensely. I often find myself looking at Gaspy2, Skaverous and Goreshade3 in the living model themes but they lose out on part of their tech. Excarnate/mockery on a mechanithrall isn't great but at least they don't lose an ability altogether.
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Post by theghost on Mar 12, 2018 11:53:46 GMT
I'm sorry but I can't even comprehend that people actually require buffs to our colossals. Seriously?
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