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Post by Octantis on Mar 7, 2018 20:29:05 GMT
I don't play a lot of Nemo3 and I don't play a lot of games but I've been looking at the CID thread where they're talking about changes to immunities and there's tons of salt about how eleaps need to be changed *grumble grumble angry*.
I use the occasional eleap to bounce into a stealthed enemy I couldn't hit otherwise; but damn you'd think we were breaking the game using tech that's been in existence for what 10 months since Battle Engine CID dropped and Nemo3's feat not changing since Mk2? This is what happens when you take away Haley2, we find something else to beat you over the head with.
The last time I saw people this salty about Cygnar was with the Storm Lances.
So with the proposed changes we can now burn out our spark nodes. I'd like to plant this seed for a new solo unit to be released in the future. Treat them like Storm Callers where you buy them in 3s but they activate individually. These guys are nothing but spark nodes on legs. I'm thinking like Darius' half jacks. They're "immune" to electricity and all they do is run up and provide a target for us to shoot in order to bounce into bad guys. In effect you're paying a price to bounce shots and provides an opportunity for the enemy to remove them. The downside to them is that they'd be cheap flag controlling models if you didn't need them as a spark node.
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Post by slinkdawg on Mar 7, 2018 22:17:59 GMT
I don't play a lot of Nemo3 and I don't play a lot of games but I've been looking at the CID thread where they're talking about changes to immunities and there's tons of salt about how eleaps need to be changed *grumble grumble angry*. I use the occasional eleap to bounce into a stealthed enemy I couldn't hit otherwise; but damn you'd think we were breaking the game using tech that's been in existence for what 10 months since Battle Engine CID dropped and Nemo3's feat not changing since Mk2? This is what happens when you take away Haley2, we find something else to beat you over the head with. The last time I saw people this salty about Cygnar was with the Storm Lances. So with the proposed changes we can now burn out our spark nodes. I'd like to plant this seed for a new solo unit to be released in the future. Treat them like Storm Callers where you buy them in 3s but they activate individually. These guys are nothing but spark nodes on legs. I'm thinking like Darius' half jacks. They're "immune" to electricity and all they do is run up and provide a target for us to shoot in order to bounce into bad guys. In effect you're paying a price to bounce shots and provides an opportunity for the enemy to remove them. The downside to them is that they'd be cheap flag controlling models if you didn't need them as a spark node. Just give cygnar an incorporeal unit that’s not a warcaster. |
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Post by labyrinth on Mar 8, 2018 0:37:12 GMT
I like your idea Octantis, cause right now, Nemo3 can just get around so much defensive tech (pretty much all of it) by just bouncing off his own models.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850 
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Post by Provengreil on Mar 8, 2018 13:37:07 GMT
I don't play a lot of Nemo3 and I don't play a lot of games but I've been looking at the CID thread where they're talking about changes to immunities and there's tons of salt about how eleaps need to be changed *grumble grumble angry*. I use the occasional eleap to bounce into a stealthed enemy I couldn't hit otherwise; but damn you'd think we were breaking the game using tech that's been in existence for what 10 months since Battle Engine CID dropped and Nemo3's feat not changing since Mk2? This is what happens when you take away Haley2, we find something else to beat you over the head with. The last time I saw people this salty about Cygnar was with the Storm Lances. So with the proposed changes we can now burn out our spark nodes. I'd like to plant this seed for a new solo unit to be released in the future. Treat them like Storm Callers where you buy them in 3s but they activate individually. These guys are nothing but spark nodes on legs. I'm thinking like Darius' half jacks. They're "immune" to electricity and all they do is run up and provide a target for us to shoot in order to bounce into bad guys. In effect you're paying a price to bounce shots and provides an opportunity for the enemy to remove them. The downside to them is that they'd be cheap flag controlling models if you didn't need them as a spark node. Instead of perhaps being bullheaded and aggressive about it, you might stop and think that e-leaps just might represent an actual problem that PP simply hasn't accepted solutions for?
I stopped by the cygnar forums to collect ideas about what other element-using factions think about this new change. I see this load of garbage and wonder if you've ever actually faced e-leaps while using the stuff they deny. It's not just stealth: clouds, obstacles, obstructions, trench/cover/dig in, concealment, jackwalls, untargetability, shield guarding, and DEF buffs are all completely ignored*. Furthermore, a significant amount of retaliatory effects just stop working for no good reason: soul collection fails, corpse collection gets odd, vengeance, righteous vengeance, battle driven, inhuman resolve, and hyper aggressive all don't function. That's just off my head, I barely paused while typing that.
I know the comeback for this will be "why hasn't nemo been curbstomping tournaments?" My answer is that he doesn't have to for e-leaps to be an issue. Having all your cool stuff not function because reasons is very much an NPE, I've even watched a new player leave the game over it. I guarantee you that simply making e-leaps 3" rather than 4 and count as attacks would satisfy most people, and I rather doubt it would have meaningful effects on win rates.
*also carapace, but I don't think anything with low enough arm/boxes to fear leaps has it so whatever on that.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Mar 8, 2018 14:00:03 GMT
Having all your cool stuff not function because reasons is very much an NPE, I've even watched a new player leave the game over it.
It's good to root out the weak early  tell them to go and play Age of Spess Mehreen! |
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Post by labyrinth on Mar 8, 2018 14:09:36 GMT
I don't play a lot of Nemo3 and I don't play a lot of games but I've been looking at the CID thread where they're talking about changes to immunities and there's tons of salt about how eleaps need to be changed *grumble grumble angry*. I use the occasional eleap to bounce into a stealthed enemy I couldn't hit otherwise; but damn you'd think we were breaking the game using tech that's been in existence for what 10 months since Battle Engine CID dropped and Nemo3's feat not changing since Mk2? This is what happens when you take away Haley2, we find something else to beat you over the head with. The last time I saw people this salty about Cygnar was with the Storm Lances. So with the proposed changes we can now burn out our spark nodes. I'd like to plant this seed for a new solo unit to be released in the future. Treat them like Storm Callers where you buy them in 3s but they activate individually. These guys are nothing but spark nodes on legs. I'm thinking like Darius' half jacks. They're "immune" to electricity and all they do is run up and provide a target for us to shoot in order to bounce into bad guys. In effect you're paying a price to bounce shots and provides an opportunity for the enemy to remove them. The downside to them is that they'd be cheap flag controlling models if you didn't need them as a spark node. Instead of perhaps being bullheaded and aggressive about it, you might stop and think that e-leaps just might represent an actual problem that PP simply hasn't accepted solutions for?
I stopped by the cygnar forums to collect ideas about what other element-using factions think about this new change. I see this load of garbage and wonder if you've ever actually faced e-leaps while using the stuff they deny. It's not just stealth: clouds, obstacles, obstructions, trench/cover/dig in, concealment, jackwalls, untargetability, shield guarding, and DEF buffs are all completely ignored*. Furthermore, a significant amount of retaliatory effects just stop working for no good reason: soul collection fails, corpse collection gets odd, vengeance, righteous vengeance, battle driven, inhuman resolve, and hyper aggressive all don't function. That's just off my head, I barely paused while typing that.
I know the comeback for this will be "why hasn't nemo been curbstomping tournaments?" My answer is that he doesn't have to for e-leaps to be an issue. Having all your cool stuff not function because reasons is very much an NPE, I've even watched a new player leave the game over it. I guarantee you that simply making e-leaps 3" rather than 4 and count as attacks would satisfy most people, and I rather doubt it would have meaningful effects on win rates.
*also carapace, but I don't think anything with low enough arm/boxes to fear leaps has it so whatever on that.
And well nemo3 has been stomping tournaments, Ontario champions for instance. But I completely agree with you, I want to play nemo3 without everyone hating me or refusing to play. |
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Post by supercancel on Mar 8, 2018 16:14:13 GMT
On the other hand, I have played on the receiving end of eleaps and don't think they are any worse than the many other things that "ignore X" of which WM/H is filled with. E leaps are a thing, easly mitigated and making it so they can accidentally kill the spark node now ... quite easily as most of the nodes we currently use will die with suprising regularity to 10+D6 damage.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Mar 8, 2018 16:19:49 GMT
On the other hand, I have played on the receiving end of eleaps and don't think they are any worse than the many other things that "ignore X" of which WM/H is filled with. E leaps are a thing, easly mitigated and making it so they can accidentally kill the spark node now ... quite easily as most of the nodes we currently use will die with suprising regularity to 10+D6 damage. There's a thread in the Menoth forums listing out everything in faction negated by leaps. the first post is as long as this thread, at time of posting this comment.
There's really nothing else as widespread in a faction that gets around so much.
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Post by darkangeldentist on Mar 8, 2018 21:51:29 GMT
This change is somewhat perplexing in that it keeps what was (arguably) causing the most complaints. That lightning immune models are ignored when determining e-leaps and bounces. All it achieves from a Cygnar perspective is to make the mirror somewhat less tilting and Kreugar rather less obnoxious.
That e-leaps will also still get around all those effects dependent on 'enemy attack' wording is just rubbing salt into the wound.
The change greatly reduces the benefits of elemental immunities, especially for infantry who usually don't have the ARM values to survive any kind of hit. (ARM 11 on a stormsmith means lightning is still going to kill him nearly every time.) Croaks, Assault Kommandos, Cleansers, greylords, etc... the list goes on, all go from having certain threats they could ignore with impunity to now just comforting themselves that, if they do survive, the continuous effect won't apply. Whilst their arm may in some cases be high enough to keep some alive the fact is that they've gone from total invincibility against an attack type to reduced vulnerability to it. That's a pretty major step down and in some cases calls for complete reassessment of their value.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Mar 8, 2018 23:22:28 GMT
Nemo3 is the problem. Normally leaps can be fought with armor, Nemo3 turns it around and allows them to destroy heavies for a turn reducing the possible counterplay to only electro immune stuff which is scarce.
The current iteration of Nemo3's feat is bad for the game and must change by reducing the amount of damage it produces. Work only on attack damage rolls or models in his control or something.
Outside of Nemo3 leaps countered by arm stacking which is like 2/3 of the meta.
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Post by josephkerr on Mar 9, 2018 0:37:10 GMT
Outside of Nemo3 leaps countered by arm stacking which is like 2/3 of the meta. Id argue that meta is shaped, in part, by e leaps, including arm stacking and fewer infantry units. Yes, Storm Lances needed a nerf and they lost electro leap. Traditionally, mass infantry can be powerful into heavies which struggle to effeciently kill infantry which can just clog the board and win on scenario, but when Lightning Generator with impunity is meta, it makes relying on infantry a poor decision. Why take more than a couple units when Nemo3 can kill 3+ units on feat turn and its nearly impossible to stop? Cygnar players are clever and they find ways to deliver leaps. At least now if they delete my stuff theyve lost the jack they used to do it, and cant just plant one storm pod and clear a 4" radius around it. |
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tell them to go and play Age of Spess Mehreen!
