Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Mar 11, 2018 21:59:51 GMT
I think that the change will help Repenters and Vanquishers see some more table time. Cleansers are a little sad though. I'd argue that it won't help much. I have yet to see Fire Immunity keeping them back. Repeaters don't see a lot of play because of RAT 5 and few ways to increase that. Vanquishers are just dramatically overcosted for what they do.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Mar 11, 2018 23:33:43 GMT
I think that the change will help Repenters and Vanquishers see some more table time. Cleansers are a little sad though. I'd argue that it won't help much. I have yet to see Fire Immunity keeping them back. Repeaters don't see a lot of play because of RAT 5 and few ways to increase that. Vanquishers are just dramatically overcosted for what they do. I agree with that, but the amount of work that they can both do has increased, which in turn lowers their opportunity cost a little. Is it enough? Probably not, but there's now one less reason to not to take them.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Mar 12, 2018 0:39:45 GMT
Im not so sure that PP wont come back at us with a revision thats more low arm infantry friendly. That said, theyve had a ton of feedback from Company of Iron about how these rules do effect infantry. It could be something theyre testing, or it could be ready to go for the next update and they just CIDed it with CG because their immunities are so prevalent that they cant get meaningful testing of their capabilities without informing the tester base. I think its safe to speculate that current hard counter immunities are going the way of the dodo, but maybe they are planning softer changes. That doesn't explain why they were banning people for bringing up Nemo3, though. That's a model that hasn't been tested in CoI, and is currently everywhere in the international Master's meta. That should be an obvious basis for discussion of the impacts of these changes. I kinda see both sides of this one. Given his recent prevalence and upcoming removal of best counters, he'll naturally be on people's minds. This would make it incredibly easy for people to mentally brush aside the CID and have a go at nemo. PP doesn't want the second, players who recently got hard countered by his leaps are chomping at the bit for the first. If you guys want to make points about the immunity changes affect armies, I think your best bet is fire immune jackwalls and/or Malekus FM lists. it'll get the rule change in batreps win a way they won't be mad about, on a caster whose feat is moderately comparable, and explore full elemental shooting lists playing into their resistances.
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Post by greytemplar on Mar 12, 2018 1:18:14 GMT
This is game where magic exists... Ok, its silly that Feora rides a magic carpet into space and bathes in the heart of the sun cause 'immune to fire.' Or are u mentioning magic because it makes sense to u that Feora can be so magic that fire doesnt burn her but no fire can be so magic that it does burn her? Cause that also sounds silly to me. Bathe in a lake of lava all u want but theres magic fire in this game. The point was that the fire that is encountered on Caen, be it magic or not, can easily be defeated by magic so completely that being totally immune makes sense. Now if Feora did fly into the sun, she would of course die, but that's because that fire would be an order of magnitude more powerful than any fire you'd cook up with either physical or magical means on Caen. Besides, its always good to have gradients. Have some stuff be totally immune, have others be only partially, and have other stuff have no immunities at all.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Mar 12, 2018 8:05:01 GMT
For those talking about magical fire immunity, it is literally their control of that element allowing them to protect themselves against it. Feora doesn't have magic fireproof skin, she just has such a natural control of fire from being a fire sorceress that she can keep the fire from burning her, even when practically wreathed in it. Yes, this would be dependent on power, and yes it would have feasible limits. Feora probably can't walk up to Charsaug and just dance around in his draconic breath. Also nothing is fully fire-proof either. Firemen wear fireproofed gear, and that will protect them from CATCHING fire if some burning piece of a building brushes against them, but it's not going to save them from someone spraying a flamethrower at them. They'll still burn to death, though their nice coat might survive. That is very unfortunate. This is going to really throw the game out of whack. You honestly think that anyone is going to be thrown out of whack beyond their first game seeing this interaction and saying "huh, that's an odd name for it, since it's not really immunity" and then moving on? You really think anyone is going to actually be caught up by this for any longer than that?
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Post by streetpizza on Mar 12, 2018 17:24:29 GMT
Ok, its silly that Feora rides a magic carpet into space and bathes in the heart of the sun cause 'immune to fire.' Or are u mentioning magic because it makes sense to u that Feora can be so magic that fire doesnt burn her but no fire can be so magic that it does burn her? Cause that also sounds silly to me. Bathe in a lake of lava all u want but theres magic fire in this game. The point was that the fire that is encountered on Caen, be it magic or not, can easily be defeated by magic so completely that being totally immune makes sense. Now if Feora did fly into the sun, she would of course die, but that's because that fire would be an order of magnitude more powerful than any fire you'd cook up with either physical or magical means on Caen. Besides, its always good to have gradients. Have some stuff be totally immune, have others be only partially, and have other stuff have no immunities at all. Feora has immunity fire ... she skipped immunity cosmic radiation.
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Post by streetpizza on Mar 12, 2018 17:26:56 GMT
Over all to me this is a silly change that's really counter intuitive. Immunity should mean IMMUNITY not resistance. If they wanted to make it a resistance then resistance rule should be added to the game and models that they want to have resistance instead of immunity should be changed and re costed accordingly. ... I could get behind this change or a similar one but the implementation is just lazy lazy lazy. All good to dislike it, but I think you are being unfair in a couple of places here... RE first paragraph: I think getting hung up over a word is a bit of a waste of energy. Your interpretation of 'immunity' isn't the only one - for example people that work with vaccines probably don't associate the words 'immunity' and '100% effective'. RE second paragraph: On top of CID, we first had this flagged as a potential change for warmachine last year. How much data do you want them to get? Who said anything about data. I'm sure they've got all the information they need to identify where the issues are. The fact of the matter is, per the CID forums, they're not interested in looking at this on a model per model basis like they should be. That's lazy.
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Post by greytemplar on Mar 13, 2018 1:12:51 GMT
For those talking about magical fire immunity, it is literally their control of that element allowing them to protect themselves against it. Feora doesn't have magic fireproof skin, she just has such a natural control of fire from being a fire sorceress that she can keep the fire from burning her, even when practically wreathed in it. Yes, this would be dependent on power, and yes it would have feasible limits. Feora probably can't walk up to Charsaug and just dance around in his draconic breath. Also nothing is fully fire-proof either. Firemen wear fireproofed gear, and that will protect them from CATCHING fire if some burning piece of a building brushes against them, but it's not going to save them from someone spraying a flamethrower at them. They'll still burn to death, though their nice coat might survive. That is very unfortunate. This is going to really throw the game out of whack. You honestly think that anyone is going to be thrown out of whack beyond their first game seeing this interaction and saying "huh, that's an odd name for it, since it's not really immunity" and then moving on? You really think anyone is going to actually be caught up by this for any longer than that? By out of whack, I and many others are referring to game balance. Not confusion from players. I was sure that was abundantly clear in my post.
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blakeh1
Junior Strategist
Posts: 181
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Post by blakeh1 on Mar 13, 2018 1:16:15 GMT
Having Fire Immunity in Menoth is a huge advantage simply because you can toss around those fire sprays and AOE's without worrying about damaging your own guys
I've got several lists built around the synergy of being able to shoot across your own stuff with Cleansers, Repenters, Revelator etc...
I'd be ok with it if maybe they would give Cleansers the "Clear" rule. Maybe Zealots could chant that as well instead of immunity Fire?
The lightning leap themes still get to keep their immunity to eleaps after all
The warjacks are mostly ok with the 1 less damage die
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Mar 13, 2018 6:52:32 GMT
For those talking about magical fire immunity, it is literally their control of that element allowing them to protect themselves against it. Feora doesn't have magic fireproof skin, she just has such a natural control of fire from being a fire sorceress that she can keep the fire from burning her, even when practically wreathed in it. Yes, this would be dependent on power, and yes it would have feasible limits. Feora probably can't walk up to Charsaug and just dance around in his draconic breath. Also nothing is fully fire-proof either. Firemen wear fireproofed gear, and that will protect them from CATCHING fire if some burning piece of a building brushes against them, but it's not going to save them from someone spraying a flamethrower at them. They'll still burn to death, though their nice coat might survive. You honestly think that anyone is going to be thrown out of whack beyond their first game seeing this interaction and saying "huh, that's an odd name for it, since it's not really immunity" and then moving on? You really think anyone is going to actually be caught up by this for any longer than that? By out of whack, I and many others are referring to game balance. Not confusion from players. I was sure that was abundantly clear in my post. It nerfs maybe a tiny range of models, and buffs many more.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Mar 13, 2018 12:26:38 GMT
By out of whack, I and many others are referring to game balance. Not confusion from players. I was sure that was abundantly clear in my post. It nerfs maybe a tiny range of models, and buffs many more. Even of those it nerfs, it largely only nerfs some of the most abusive strategies of those models. I think cleansers are really the only guys left who truly used rather than abused or just kindo of had the rule.
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Post by streetpizza on Mar 13, 2018 13:39:00 GMT
It renders the prayer for fire immunity on zealots totally useless. This is just one of the interactions which if the change goes through needs to be addressed.
The game should not be a monolithic set of rules which can't be revisited but PP should at least take the time to recost and/or re-balance models affected by sweeping core rules changes.
Over all this modification doesn't even really change the state of WM/H. There are still plenty of auto loss matchups out there so I'm not sure why the elemental immunity thing is being singled out other than they wanted to make a faction with blanket immunities everywhere. So they got lazy about it.
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Post by greytemplar on Mar 13, 2018 16:41:50 GMT
By out of whack, I and many others are referring to game balance. Not confusion from players. I was sure that was abundantly clear in my post. It nerfs maybe a tiny range of models, and buffs many more. Nope. It renders Immunity on any low arm single wound models largely useless outside of blast damage, and then only if it's low pow blast damage. Sprays and such will be largely unaffected because they are high pow enough to kill single wound infantry with even only a single damage die. Zealots and Cleansers are getting totally hosed by this change for example. And they weren't great to begin with. PP will now need to do a complete redesign of everything that has Immunities simply because they've altered the value of the ability, and anything that was costed with that ability needs a rework.
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Post by greytemplar on Mar 13, 2018 16:43:59 GMT
It renders the prayer for fire immunity on zealots totally useless. This is just one of the interactions which if the change goes through needs to be addressed. The game should not be a monolithic set of rules which can't be revisited but PP should at least take the time to recost and/or re-balance models affected by sweeping core rules changes. Over all this modification doesn't even really change the state of WM/H. There are still plenty of auto loss matchups out there so I'm not sure why the elemental immunity thing is being singled out other than they wanted to make a faction with blanket immunities everywhere. So they got lazy about it. Indeed. It's lazy writing. They wanted to make a faction that has Immunity Corrosion and Fire everywhere, but didn't want that balance issue. But they were too short sighted to realize this will affect the rest of the game in a negative way. Really, they should have used Crucible Guard as a way to introduce "Resistance" as a new advantage for testing. And then later applied that to the rest of the game.
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Post by josephkerr on Mar 13, 2018 19:36:50 GMT
They wanted to make a faction that has Immunity Corrosion and Fire everywhere, but didn't want that balance issue. Or they wanted to get rid of a player targetting their own Immune models with Elemental attacks. Their stated reason is they dont like the "non-interractivity" of Immunity. So cleansers/zealots losing the ability to target each other with zero consequences is probably working as intended, and just because people played them that way doesnt mean they deserve a buff anymore than the Firefly does. Maybe they get 'Clear' or maybe they stay the same.
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