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Post by slaughtersun on Mar 9, 2018 10:25:54 GMT
Vayl1 was always a tricky caster to play. She always was an easy caster to kill even with dark sentinel.
However she rewarded practice and her mk2 version was one of the deepest casters in legion and arguably in the game.
Her mk3 version got hit by the nerf bat badly... its not that shes not good...its the fact that other casters do what she does better.
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Post by jediguru on Mar 9, 2018 13:53:12 GMT
I'm not sure what to tell you if you think it's useless. This astounds me. What makes you think that? Her feat is a big reason why you would play her. When played well it can allow for a double alpha, more advantageous positioning, to jam, or all of the above. With the terrain rules in SR 17 it's probably better then its ever been before. I have to tell you, you have a very unpopular opinion of her feat. Maybe most other people have just gotten very unlucky with games/you're getting very lucky. I don't think that's true at all. You also haven't told me what makes you think it's useless. Her feat has been considered good since mk 2. What people have a hard time with and don't like is the fact that Vayl herself can no longer move with it. This is definitely a downside and makes it harder to use. It is certainly not the easiest of feats to use effectively like say Abby 2 but when used properly it is very effective even with not being able to move her. Look, I'm not saying she's our best caster or this list is the end all be all of lists but Vayl 1 is far better then people give her credit for. Most never even put her on the table before declaring she is terrible. Guess the only explanation is I must just be a lucky guy. I played the snot out of Vayl 1 in mk 2 and know how to use her feat well.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
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Post by gordo on Mar 9, 2018 17:24:43 GMT
I played Vayl1 a lot in both Mk2 and Mk3. Like anything in Legion, it is trivially removed by shooting. She has even less defense against it than most. Her feat is "okay". You can build for it. She simply doesn't have any hitting power without Incite, and she can't ever safely use Incite with her new feat. So I've found she works best in waves: first round is Angelius and short range ranged attacks, who then retreat under feat to relative safety. Since they won't have offensive benefits, they won't do a lot but they will get away often without reprisal. Second round is go all in with Incite any hope you've done enough damage with your two rounds to win or at least keep Vayl safe.
I'm my experience, she doubles down on what Legion is good at and what Legion is bad at. She makes her army incredibly maneuverable and she had even less staying power than the rest of Legion. In the new meta of "guns & jacks", she ends up incredibly difficult to use. You need to get in extremely close to make her army perform near their points values, and her best defense against ranged attacks is to pray for a generous table.
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Post by davycannonhound on Mar 11, 2018 4:00:22 GMT
I have to tell you, you have a very unpopular opinion of her feat. Maybe most other people have just gotten very unlucky with games/you're getting very lucky. I don't think that's true at all. You also haven't told me what makes you think it's useless. Her feat has been considered good since mk 2. What people have a hard time with and don't like is the fact that Vayl herself can no longer move with it. This is definitely a downside and makes it harder to use. It is certainly not the easiest of feats to use effectively like say Abby 2 but when used properly it is very effective even with not being able to move her. Look, I'm not saying she's our best caster or this list is the end all be all of lists but Vayl 1 is far better then people give her credit for. Most never even put her on the table before declaring she is terrible. Guess the only explanation is I must just be a lucky guy. I played the snot out of Vayl 1 in mk 2 and know how to use her feat well. The only practical use I can see out of her feat is jamming, or getting a double alpha out of incite. The former requires the sacrifice of expensive pieces, as Legion doesn't really have anything that jams well and cheaply. The latter is too dangerous as Vayl doesn't get to move back, and Incite has such a tiny range that she HAS to be at the front. Either way, its not worth it to me.
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Post by snotling on Mar 11, 2018 10:27:45 GMT
Don't incite for the first alpha, use bfs for damagebuff, and retreat them out of los with the feat. Trying two incite alphas is way to greedy.
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Hjard
Junior Strategist
Posts: 123
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Post by Hjard on Mar 12, 2018 8:50:05 GMT
The only practical use I can see out of her feat is jamming, or getting a double alpha out of incite. The former requires the sacrifice of expensive pieces, as Legion doesn't really have anything that jams well and cheaply. Grotesques (both), Striders (both), Warmongers (after point cost reduction)? All <=13pts, annoying when in your face and can't be ignored since they will eat your face with Incite next turn (okay maybe not the Striders, but they make that up in DEF and cost).
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danx
Junior Strategist
Posts: 120
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Post by danx on Mar 12, 2018 13:41:20 GMT
Hex Hunters Jam really well. And with Feat are really funny vs Cav.
I can see some Oralces double thrones Max Hex Hunters, Anglius list being quite entertaining to play. Ice witches sprays under incite sound really good too.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Mar 12, 2018 18:25:57 GMT
Hex Hunters Jam really well. And with Feat are really funny vs Cav. I can see some Oralces double thrones Max Hex Hunters, Anglius list being quite entertaining to play. Ice witches sprays under incite sound really good too. What am I missing about Hex Hunters and cavalry? I don't see the interaction. Having said all that, I think Thrones do make make Vayls feat much more usable. It looks like a solid list. Oh, and back before themes I got to play Vayl1 with Banshees. OMG that spray is amazing under Incite. Though it's very risky that Vayl will live long while getting close enough for them use it.
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Post by snotling on Mar 12, 2018 19:38:48 GMT
Hex Hunters Jam really well. And with Feat are really funny vs Cav. I can see some Oralces double thrones Max Hex Hunters, Anglius list being quite entertaining to play. Ice witches sprays under incite sound really good too. What am I missing about Hex Hunters and cavalry? I don't see the interaction. Having said all that, I think Thrones do make make Vayls feat much more usable. It looks like a solid list. Oh, and back before themes I got to play Vayl1 with Banshees. OMG that spray is amazing under Incite. Though it's very risky that Vayl will live long while getting close enough for them use it. Because Cav is likely to survive the charge, but can't shake shadowbind would be my guess
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Post by skb on Mar 12, 2018 19:47:15 GMT
Me and a few friends discussed using her to in ravens to get serious board space and jam in to gain a solid scenario lead. I think angels is the battle group of choice for that and valkyries for her protection too.
It is completely untested but could be fun. Striders and grots with hellmouth tentacles mixed in to block tramples.
One day I will play it.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Mar 12, 2018 21:31:46 GMT
What am I missing about Hex Hunters and cavalry? I don't see the interaction. Having said all that, I think Thrones do make make Vayls feat much more usable. It looks like a solid list. Oh, and back before themes I got to play Vayl1 with Banshees. OMG that spray is amazing under Incite. Though it's very risky that Vayl will live long while getting close enough for them use it. Because Cav is likely to survive the charge, but can't shake shadowbind would be my guess Argh, I was confusing Hex Bolt with Shadowbind, my bad! Though how you would ever survive to melee their Cavalry with Hex Hunters is beyond me...
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Post by josephkerr on Mar 12, 2018 22:24:55 GMT
Because Cav is likely to survive the charge, but can't shake shadowbind would be my guess Argh, I was confusing Hex Bolt with Shadowbind, my bad! Though how you would ever survive to melee their Cavalry with Hex Hunters is beyond me... Stand behind the central piece of terrain then Apparition around it for charge lanes. Also, theyre def 14 with a 14.5" run/engage and a second 6" walk on feat turn. Cavalry's often mat 6 or 7 and doesnt wanna have to make impact attacks on a couple hex huters or fail their charge. edit: One thing to remember is that hex hunters in Oracles have a walk/Hex Bolt threat of 14" so they technically outhreat a lot of cav with a reasonably powerful attack. On feat u can walk, hex bolt, walk with parry and engage cav trying to stay outside ur 11.5" charge threat.
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Post by davycannonhound on Mar 13, 2018 4:54:49 GMT
The only practical use I can see out of her feat is jamming, or getting a double alpha out of incite. The former requires the sacrifice of expensive pieces, as Legion doesn't really have anything that jams well and cheaply. Grotesques (both), Striders (both), Warmongers (after point cost reduction)? All <=13pts, annoying when in your face and can't be ignored since they will eat your face with Incite next turn (okay maybe not the Striders, but they make that up in DEF and cost). Hadn't considered Warmongers after the point reduction. Though, I'm not sure that Vayl offers them much besides Incite (which is a trap spell).
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Post by jediguru on Mar 13, 2018 12:44:40 GMT
Hoping to get in a couple more games tomorrow night with the list. I missed out on games last week with a storm closing down the store on our weekly wmh night. Will post up a bat rep or two here.
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danx
Junior Strategist
Posts: 120
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Post by danx on Mar 13, 2018 15:21:38 GMT
Err.. the Hex Hunters are effectively Spd8 in Oracles which is the same as quite a lot of Cav. If you slipsteam a few of them - they have a melee threat of 13.5" which is very respectable. I often slipsteam 2 of them, sometimes 3.
If you can shadow bind or stationary the front Battle Engine or Cav, the rest of the army can be trapped behind it. Its really good. Its amazing how often one of them misses when it needs to not miss though!
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