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Post by Charistoph on Mar 5, 2018 20:35:53 GMT
Working as a Mercenary for a Faction is one thing for a Warcaster, but Partisan is different. Magnus2 is a Minion for Skorne, but I can only take him if the game gets up to two Warlocks. Blaize and Cain3 can be taken as the first Warcaster for either Cygnar or Mercenaries. Actually i'm pretty sure Magnus2 doesn't work for skorne in mk3, but did in mk2, i remember being sad they took it off Bah, you're right. See how often people need to look that up? Even if you swapped it with Khador, or changed the name to MacBain and Cygnar, the point still applies.
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Choco
Junior Strategist
Gorten, best feet in the game.
Posts: 571
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Post by Choco on Mar 5, 2018 21:25:31 GMT
With all the posts and confusion and such, Gastone can work for CG, but he's is not a partisan. Unless PP wants to drop that on us during the CID, his card already states he will work for CG.
As far as what I'm excited for? The Interceptor. It's one of the few battle engines (imo) that actually can do lots of work for the investment. The multiple guns for multiple situations. And of course there is a caster that will be riding in one too. I can't wait to see what her complete package is as we only have small bites so far.
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Mar 8, 2018 0:56:20 GMT
So still digesting.
THe command attachment is Firetrucking bonkers for three points. This dude has to change. THere's a lot going on here. So i'm just going to take some low hanging fruit, there's WAY MORE combinations than this. Who wants to deal with Friendly Faction PS 13 (BEFORE debuffs on target or spell buffs !), super tough Horgenhold forgguard that can move after destroying a model... no? Thought so. Aldolpheus can give his target unit Tough on approach when the Attack roll debuff doesn't really matter. He can give friendly faction status to the target unit to receive buffs - such as Sylvestro's Transmutation - along with Morely's effect this could make HHFG alone Def 13/ARM18, PS15 weapon master. Should the target have, oh i dunno, any of the plethora of armor debuffs you could be looking at PS17 or north. Or how about Lukas' giving the Iron Flesh for ARM 20, and then applying DIsintegrate to the target to keep them at PS15 weaponmaster.... Gearheart is slightly less offensive here as he only (only!) offers Decel on approach. Sure HHFG have many counters : that's where a turn of 4+ tough comes into play to help mitigate.
No, no, at 3 points this is crazy town. That's just the tip of the iceberg, there's some other stuff you could do with Morely as well with other units. A lesser ridiculous useage would be the ol' "AIyana ANd Holt" to get yet another damage stack, but i'm not even sure you need to do that as you have enough damage stacks that sinking 11 points into another +2 bonus and a couple POW 12's isn't critical. Still, its an option.
Trancer looks neat. I see tons of utility there. The names a bit odd. FA:4 they are like mini missiles. They strike me as significantly less terrifying Mage Hunter Assassins still capable of packing a nasty punch if you don't do due dilligence and mitigate them. The low armor keeps them in check though with options for people to counter them, but still a nice piece for a savy player to find uses for.
Prospero strikes me as a bit auto-includey, which i tend to not like. That indicates to me he might be too good (again, need to really digest him more in context of the rest of the available options). Field Marshal dispel is nice, particularly when you can be throwing out boosted attack sprays willy nilly. Id take him for the Veteran Leader to augment the already not-bad base jack stats in faction along with the myriad of debuffs that further assist. Guided fire is a great little spell for this Journeyman, as is the very unique Instability equation. He seems a little too good for 5 points but i'm not sure what to cut and still make him worthwhile more than situationally ? Maybe a 5 point journeyman only needs to be situational ? Honestly the thing i keep looking at and going "damn that's good" is veteran leader Warjack. While you have to play him up, that might be what's tipping him into crazy levels ? The rest of his kit is pretty nice for a 5 point model hoenstly.
Big Alyce has some great potential too with a combination of effects. I love how her not Hulk Mad self is a support piece - granting eyeless sight or perhaps reducing spell costs (nice for Lukas in particular), and empower is fantastic. I enjoy the fact that even if someone picks her off early game you still get a light bruiser, or when you say "screw it, the need for the effects is over, i could use another pounder here" you have that option. Its a neat take on a warcaster attachment, for sure, who traditionally have been relegated to support only roles.
Rocketman Ace: good i suppose if you're taking rocketmen? I dunno, seems way better ways to spend 4 points on a solo to me.
Assault troopers feel too good for their pricepoint. at 8/13 being for most intents and purposes 13/20 on approach seems a bit much. Their offensive output is impressive too at MAT 7 charging PS15's... base... in a faction replete with debuffs. Might be a bit much on first pass. So far they are the melee option that intrigues me most. Of course the flip side 16 armor in melee is not fantastic, but at least they are buoyed somewhat by ashen veils functional in many respects 13 def in melee. Again, a new(ish) take on medium infantry which is deliverable, better than expected def at the cost of some armor once delivered. These guys strike me as taking buffs very well.
Vulcan seems... pretty damn good. SPD 6 and rat 6 sprays (again in a faction that can apply debuffs) seems excellent, maybe even too much. Not sure how i feel about this guy yet but he strikes me as a little excessive.
Lukas is crazy good, Crazy flippin good. Hide yo kids, hide yo wife good. If i'm understanding it correctly juicer and feat don't just add focus points, but add it to the stat. Juicer combined with the feat with that spell list is holy shit good. Disintegrate is phenomenal - its effectively POW 15 all the time with a lasting debuff, and force hammer on a caster like this is potent as hell - and he has ability to sling a good number of spells. Balancing his offensive output with his defensive wherewithal due to the base low FOC stat will be a bit of a tightrope but not an overly difficult one. One concern i have is that it appears very easy to make him trivially easy an 8 Focus caster for most of the game. He has three juicer boxes, can clear them on a given turn (you can mark box 3, say, do your thing, pop the feat, wipe away all the boxes, and then cut for focus - while its a gambit and a half, that could give you a turn where you had 16 focus at your disposal, with the other 5 turns of juicer possiblity being 8). There are some functional limitations but they aren't deep or wide. You start factoring in secondary debuffs and you could have a caster slinging with some serious to hit possibility, and secondary debuffs past disintegration could have forcehammers hitting at nearly POW 20. Possibly more.
Sylvestro: I've spoken my thoughts elsewhere. I like most of what he offers but Super Stealth. I say give him prowl and make the cloud an after-movement effect (so he gets stealth), or have the cloud grant him stealth while in the cloud. I don't like that he can trivially shut down 2/3 of the main attack vectors in the game, and for the 1/3 remaining, if you don't disperse clouds or have eyeless site, shorten your threat range significantly. A support caster of this magnitude shouldn't also be one of the hardest casters in the game to assassinate. I think his free spell mechanic should be changed to 3 focus or less so he can't casually toss out a free Purification. I'd also be open to Purification becoming something else, potentially.
Gearhart: Spoke my thoughts elsewhere. Looks fun. Lots of tools. I think the feat is much weaker than it first appears and sounds to vacuum theory. Use it to hammer 1-2 targets, anything past that is absolute gravy. There are ways to mitigate that feat that are subtle. Spell list is nice, and possibly the best overall concept i think. The boorish hero full of bravado, and the overworked worry wart gun caddy meets butler is very Bertie-and-Jeeves.
Locke: Very focus efficient. Bombshell's kinda Meh. I feel like engine of destruction is a trap - sure you could engineer a situation where the feat with engine will line up a killer attack run at MAT 9, PS 16 but it feels kind of forced. To me the gold is in redline with jackhammer (and the feat in conjunction with those). Road to war is also quality. I like the look of this guy as a jack focused caster who can get jacks into hard to reach places, and punish targets when you get them there. The idea of casting Jackhammer out of turn on a redlined jack everytime the enemy spends a focus or fury point after purging their animi and upkeeps is frickin' delicious. Possibly my favorite of the bunch just in terms of clever design and "muhaha" Firetruck you factor. Lots of neat tricks.
McKay - kind of boring. I see her kit, she gives a lot of fixes to Railess, and does a lot for her battle group, its just kind of boring kit. None of it is bad, and some of its actually quite good (Mobility is pretty sweet on her, and her gun effects are good to great), i just see her as very straight forward which i find a little boring. Her feat is gonna hurt and help Railess and other models use their ranged attacks to trigger not only good to great damage, but also reposition. One weakness is she has to get some mileage out of that feat ; if you run lots of railess and jacks its about your only damage fixer. Thankfully its a pretty phenomenal one, so there's that.
Retaliator - Nice target for Hot Shot. Lot of utility here - some good denial, some great anti infantry, and Continuous Fire is basically never bad. 13/17 on a light is nice. It's meh melee is acceptable given its otherwise nice stats for a light and good gun.
Liberator: 13/19 is hot for an arc node, tempered by the fact that crappy rolling twice in a row on the arc capacitor means you have an overpriced bunch of boxes with relatively shitty offensive output. If not for the arc system damage rule i'd think this was out of bounds. Though the caveat here is there are mechanics in faction - but an arcs job is to get up and in the action to sling spells, and that will put mechanics in harms way, so there's some counter balance here.
Toro: 11/20 is great, with PS 18/13 attacks. At 13 points its a great jack IMHO, though if (and its a big if), it could go to 12 points and lose counter charge i'd like it even more.
Vindicator: Interesting, a bit like a Mule which are tricky to use, but i personally like them. Rather than the throw you get a shot that does additional damage to constructs and undead... in a 4" pie that might be a little much as its a good primary anti jack weapon capable of mustering POW 14 +4d6 + buffs / debuffs.... that's... getting nutty, to say nothing of POW 7 +3d6 blast being absurdly good against undead infantry. This is one i'd want to test with buff / debuff conjunctions. The fact that it can also Firetruck with Hordes and has a good answer for incorp, etc., and it has respectable melee at PS 17 base (again, buffs, debuffs etc) might mean its got a few too many answers. Maybe instead of an additional die, it was just a static +2 damage on the first shot - so its more reliable in terms of predictability, but will not spike as hard with hot dice for huge numbers.
Suppressor: Probably one of the single most intelligently designed jacks i've seen, i really, really like this jack.
Crucible Guard Infantry: I"m going to be completely honest, i don't really get them. Sort of expensive compared ot other options, sure you can layer on buffs and debuffs, but the critical effects are sorta meh, the basic pow of the guns and sword are meh, so you almost need to stack 2 or more buffs to get something impressive, but there's way better baseline targets to start with to buff stack with soooooo..... i dunno, what am i missing? Something maybe ? A bit of a dud even with repo and whites of their eyes to assist the crits landing. I just look at other infantry and i'm not sure why i'd take these guys.
Storm Troopers: 11/20 vs ranged and free strikes, but against spells will wilt pretty hard, ditto with melee (then againt they aren't meant to get into melee, so if they take a charge, you done goofed). 16-17" native threat range on a POW 14, 3" pieplate, with arcing fire. I can see with smart application of debuffs these guys could be a menace. I will probably want to run some tests and see how easy it is to do shit like Disintegration and Rust on a target and then lob a handful of POW 18's at a target. Could be a bit much here from a bit too far away.
Rocketmen are neat-ish. Fast moving skirmish troops. I'm most interested in getting the slug guns. THe bombs and carbine are okay (though the carbines could be more than okay with debuffs) - the fact that unassisted for a turn they can be SPD 9 (!!!) and DEF 16 is pretty nice. The slug gun attachments is what attracts the heck out of me though - with a couple debuffs those things can put out some pretty nice damage numbers as a Jamming unit that can alpha strike to some extent - that's a nice combo.
Mechanics: They fix stuff. Yup.
Combat Alchemists: Interesting. Sorta mini-gormans. Smoke bombs are neat, as is prowl. Useful shots, though not as useful as they might be (acid blast is worse than gormans, and blood of urcaen's too short to be reliably anti-incorp and its crit isn't reliable enough to be anti upkeep - both effects are nice, but not terrible reliable as a main "anti incorp / anti upkeep - its a gravy ability and i'm cool with that), 3" pies of ice cage is actually what i like the most i think. Actually not i think, its definitely what i like the most.
Again these are just first impressions, i want to spend some time assembling pieces and parts.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Mar 8, 2018 2:28:04 GMT
Responses to thoughts, because I've been noodling too:
-I'm not *too* concerned about the Forge Guard with the Doctor because they are still slow as molasses. And nobody fixes that, that I can tell. However, the Doctor does way too much for 3 points. I thought he was 4 originally until I searched for 3 point solos and he popped up.
-I'm going to test the Trancer (particularly into Cryx) but initial impressions are poor. He's expensive for a throwaway model. I've seen the same schtick with Nayl for years and have never been impressed.
-Having auto-include models in such a limited faction isn't a bad thing, to me. The Choir is auto-include for the Protectorate and I stopped minding that a long time ago. However, it might be the Veteran Leader that's tipping him. It's a fantastic ability that almost pays for him alone, depending on the list you build. Also, can I lobby for Prospero's model to get a bit of bulk? His concept art was way far away from what I thought he'd look like. But then again, I just wanted him to be a Journeyman Big Daddy.
-Semi-related to above, I love Alyce. I want to do a custom job on her where her 'caster support form is a Little Sister and her hulk form is Mr. Bubbles.
-Rocketman Ace is only if you are taking Rocketmen. He seems fine. Dodge is good on base DEF 14.
-Assault Troopers are cheap, but I think that's the direction most such models are taking. They get crapped on by Cavalry and have a static 10" threat, which I don't believe can be increased. Also, ARM 20 with 5 boxes is not exactly durable (unless you're shooting them with Reckoners because Immunity: Fire).
-Vulcan is really good, but kind of pricey and pretty fragile for a Colossal. Gotta keep it safe.
-I need to test Lukas. He seems stupid good, but he might be balanced out by the options that he can take. There are so many it's been tough getting my head around.
-Syvestro is pretty damn good, but seems like a great generalist 'caster. Super Stealth is fine and comes at significant cost, as his other two abilities are really good. Purification might be free but his upkeeps aren't and he'll pay to get them back up.
-Gearhart seems like silly fun. Not sure how great he is yet; requires testing. I agree that his Feat looks awesome on paper but might come up short in practice. I think he wants to take a bunch of medium based troops and play in the first Theme force. He supports them well.
-Locke is good. Really, really good. I think she might be broken. And I'm not looking at her in Convergence (I hope someone does, though). Going to run 5x Vindicators with her against shooty lists to see how *that* goes. Also against Gaspy3 Slayer spam.
-Mackay is great and meme-worthy. I wonder how hard it will actually be to kill her. I suspect less difficult than PP seems to think right now. Her only defensive spell can't even be cast on her.
-All CG lights are awesome. They come in at reasonable melee P+S, which is fine given the number of debuffs the faction has. They all have useful functionality. I see them being staples in lists.
-I love the Toro. Let it stay as is, please! Cards on the table, I just want to have Counter Charge for once.
-Vindicator will get heavy testing from me. I suspect it might be a little much at the moment and I'm directly looking at its Decrepitation rule.
-Agreed on the Suppressor. This is one of the pieces that really excited me about the faction. If nothing else, I don't want this one touched.
-Agreed on CG Infantry. For their points, they kind of suck. I was surprised by their blandness. Their critical effects are super unreliable. Model designs are banging, though!
-Agreed on Stormtroopers. Like 'em a lot, but think the debuffs might swing them too hard to the good considering how far away they can play.
-The Rocketmen are fantastic and need little support to perform their role admirably. Unfortunately, it makes me wonder further what the point of the regular Infantry is.
-Mechaniks also grant Pathfinder and have guns for when you're bored. They kind of shocked me for 2 points. But I don't want them to get more expensive.
-Finally, Combat Alchemists underwhelmed me. Maybe I play against Sloan too much. Range 6 on the bombs seems very limiting and reliance on crits keeps them from being reliable anti-magic. They're pretty much there for pie plate Ice Cage, which is great but pretty short range.
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