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Post by onijet01 on Mar 3, 2018 8:20:59 GMT
Okay so first off, yes i know the Avitar of Menoth is not a battle group warjack and im okay with that.
My question is do players still use him and if so whats your list with him. I myself love the model for rules and enjoy using him out of theme. Due in part to Kreoss 1 being my go to caster.
My list is also well odd.
High Exemplar Kreoss
-Eye of Truth (love abilities)
-Fire of Salvation (its his jack)
Avitar or Menoth (again love rules)
3 Exemplar Knights (Carry over from mkii)
2 Exemplar Knight Seneschal (good with Knights)
Chior of Menoth (min)
Vassel of Menoth (anti disruption)
The Covent of Menoth
I like to place defenders ward on the avitar and use it as my 3rd melee heavy as it does not take forcus from my Caster. But more because i like its control abilities paired with the Eye of Truth ro really mess up my opponents plans.
I have the two jacks done up as brothers and its fun to drop both on the table especially sense Kreoss 1 had no battle group spells he is great with the avitar.
But what about the rest. Anyone play avitar for fun or tourniment (not likely) wise or is it a love hate relationship because ita not battle group (with alot of casters realy on) thing?
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Post by paradox on Mar 4, 2018 3:00:35 GMT
Theme: The Creator's Might
4 / 4 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Feora, Priestess of the Flame - WJ: +31
- Hierophant - PC: 0
- Hand of Judgment - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 18)
- Reckoner - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13)
- Devout - PC: 9
Avatar of Menoth - PC: 20
The Covenant of Menoth - PC: 0
Initiate Tristan Durant - PC: 0
- Revelator - PC: 37
Wrack - PC: 1
Wrack - PC: 1
Vassal of Menoth - PC: 0
Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4
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Post by greytemplar on Mar 4, 2018 5:05:37 GMT
I love the Avatar, but sadly his rules are not up to the standards for mk3. His rules in a vacuum are ok, but he is a good 4-5 points too expensive and him becoming vulnerable to disruption in mk3 was a questionable choice for PP.
He fell through the cracks in the transition and till he gets a mk3 rework he is simply a subpar choice.
There are a few reasons for his poor showings. Namely that the way Mk3 has been designed, the way the avatar works in a list automatically makes him a poor choice.
If we accept there are two kinds of warcasters. Casters who want a lot of jacks because they have a spell list and abilities which synergize with a lot of jacks. And then we have casters who don't want a lot of jacks because their spells and abilities are primarily focused on warriors. The issue here is that casters which want a lot of warjacks tend to have abilities which revolve around "Battlegroup" warjacks, which the Avatar is not. That means that the Avatar should primarily be for casters who don't want warjacks, right? Wrong! The Avatar is 20. freaking. points! Add that to the ~30 points of Warjacks every caster must take in this edition, and you've suddenly spent 50 points out of your 105 or so points on warjacks. And that's for a caster who doesn't want warjacks... 50% of your non-jack caster's list being warjacks is counter productive.
That's not to say he is necessarily bad. Its just that every possible list will always have something better to spend those 20 points on.
If he was 16 points OR regained immunity to disruption and gained some new abilities he might be a competitive choice again.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649 
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Post by demonic on Mar 4, 2018 6:46:40 GMT
tbh, all he'd need is a special ruling that states he is affected by battlegroup specific spells from faction friendly non-junior warcasters while within their control area. His point cost would still be taken from the infantry pool, rather than the battlegroup pool, but he'd receive the full battlegroup buffs that the rest of our jacks receive. No power up, no additional focus, no need to change his point cost. In this sort of situation, he'd be an awesome denial piece that could lock down whatever portion of a scenario you aren't pushing hard. Just place the pieces you don't want to move within his Gaze range and watch the opponent rage ^-^ the problem with doing that right now is that without the effects of battlegroup spells, he wouldn't be able to match up to even our basic light jacks, let alone another 20 point piece like the Eye of Truth.
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Fire Step
Junior Strategist
Everyday I'm Wrastlin'
Posts: 334
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Post by Fire Step on Mar 4, 2018 7:18:53 GMT
Theme: The Creator's Might 4 / 4 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Feora, Priestess of the Flame - WJ: +31 - Hierophant - PC: 0 - Hand of Judgment - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 18) - Reckoner - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Devout - PC: 9 Avatar of Menoth - PC: 20 The Covenant of Menoth - PC: 0 Initiate Tristan Durant - PC: 0 - Revelator - PC: 37 Wrack - PC: 1 Wrack - PC: 1 Vassal of Menoth - PC: 0 Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4 What even is this list I don't even How |
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Mar 4, 2018 9:00:59 GMT
I enjoyed it a lot in Creator's Might with Sevvy1 as a scenario piece (crazily tough with Defender's Ward, immunity to spells, Focus independent, killy as hell even when far away from Choir, repairable with Vessel) but then SR2017 happened and the slow, bricky list/theme became not viable anymore. Avatar was the first thing to lose from the list on it's gradual transition to the Exemplar Interdiction.
I think it can work better in the Faithful Masses now and I have seen it used a bit in this theme.
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Fire Step
Junior Strategist
Everyday I'm Wrastlin'
Posts: 334
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Post by Fire Step on Mar 4, 2018 22:42:41 GMT
Funnily enough I noticed him seeing play in one of the muse on minis lists for the team tournament this weekend. Very interesting list:
War Room Army
Protectorate of Menoth - Sev1
Theme: The Creator's Might
3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Grand Scrutator Severius - WJ: +28
- Blessing of Vengeance - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13)
- Redeemer - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11)
- Repenter - PC: 8 (Battlegroup Points Used: 4)
- Repenter - PC: 8
- Repenter - PC: 8
Avatar of Menoth - PC: 20
The Covenant of Menoth - PC: 0
Vassal of Menoth - PC: 0
Initiate Tristan Durant - PC: 0
- Indictor - PC: 15
Vassal Mechanik - PC: 1
Vassal Mechanik - PC: 1
Wrack - PC: 1
Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4
Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4
Visgoth Juviah Rhoven & Honor Guard - Rhoven, Gius & Cassian: 9
THEME: The Creator's Might
---
GENERATED : 03/03/2018 17:30:37
BUILD ID : 2054.17-11-04
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Post by paradox on Mar 4, 2018 23:28:09 GMT
Theme: The Creator's Might 4 / 4 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Feora, Priestess of the Flame - WJ: +31 - Hierophant - PC: 0 - Hand of Judgment - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 18) - Reckoner - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Devout - PC: 9 Avatar of Menoth - PC: 20 The Covenant of Menoth - PC: 0 Initiate Tristan Durant - PC: 0 - Revelator - PC: 37 Wrack - PC: 1 Wrack - PC: 1 Vassal of Menoth - PC: 0 Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4 What even is this list I don't even How Put it on the table and shoot the big stuff. Feora eliminates swarms. Its surprisingly good in practice. |
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Post by correlion on Mar 5, 2018 9:32:30 GMT
I think if Avatar will have superior stats - he will become viable choice.
Maybe +SPD or ARM.
Disruption immunity.
d3+2 focus
choir battle/passage for 1 focus.
Menoth's Gaze should be "begin advancement" not "if begin activation" like on magnus2 feat.
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Post by greytemplar on Mar 7, 2018 17:07:11 GMT
D3+2 Focus, disruption immunity, and a better Menoth's Gaze would definitely justify his price tag.
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draycos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 167
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Post by draycos on Mar 7, 2018 18:12:50 GMT
I want Menoth's Gaze to say "directly" so badly...
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Post by macdaddy on Mar 9, 2018 2:50:48 GMT
D3+2 Focus, disruption immunity, and a better Menoth's Gaze would definitely justify his price tag. I actually think I would buy him if you just did the first 2 changes. Memory’s Gaze is already pretty decent. A 4 Focus jack with disruption immunity and such would be a sexy addition to my Durst Faithful masses list. Only issue is he is not affected by feat :,( Would be wonderful if he was considered “battlegroup” for purposes of feats and spells. |
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Mar 9, 2018 4:16:33 GMT
I would change Menoth's Gaze to apply as soon as the model moved within 8" and LOS of the Avatar as opposed to beginning their activation. It's hard to have the big dude Gaze something important and have it live.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Mar 9, 2018 6:29:25 GMT
Menoth's Gaze should stay as "CMD" and LOS would definitely fit the "gaze" portion of it. My biggest beef with Menoth's Gaze is that, well, you can basically ignore it unless he runs up to you and locks you into position. Being affected by battlegroup only spells and abilities I think is probably the most important thing for him to receive. However, I also think it would be important to eliminate him receiving buffs from jack marshals, non-faction models, and junior casters. Only lead warcaster abilities should be viable and probably limit it to when they are in their CMD rather than CTRL. This would create a neat synergy between him and harby, as all her spells have been nerfed to cmd only
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Mar 9, 2018 6:51:19 GMT
That's my problem with the ability too. And you can argue that Gaze and run is a viable control strategy, but I would counter that you would want to deal with the Avatar in your grill anyway, Gaze or no, because he doesn't exactly tickle.
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