granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Mar 2, 2018 16:04:39 GMT
I have just found that they survive a few rounds but don't really put out relevant attacks. Madrak1 and bradigus are my main issues here because I want the cetratti list to be an armor cracking list but I struggle with any kind of def bump my opponent has and attack volume. The cetrati just don't have enough attacks in my experience either they don't kill the heavy that came into them and it gets 2 turns to kill them all or they can't kill enough of the unit that is hitting them or they don't threat project far enough to force my opponent to make a bad move. I have never played them at the min unit level and I am pretty down on masters of war in general.
p.s. I have not played mac2 double ferox. I played her with one unit of ferox and ceteratii. The cetratii were to keep her from dieing (spoilers she still did). I am bad at that list and gave up.
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gordo
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Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Mar 2, 2018 17:02:20 GMT
At ARM 20 (under shield wall) and 5 wounds, they die to the average Attack from a heavy (I'm assuming ps18). That heavy, assuming an average of arm 18, they barely dent. They are slower, more expensive, and more difficult to place thanks to lacking native Tactician than a full unit of Karax. They haven't got enough attacks to hurt infantry. The only thing they have over Karax is better ability to crack armor, but if they are really actually hurting a heavy they aren't in Shield wall. All the buffs given to them to make them better work similarly well, or better, on Karax.
The only other reason to take them over Karax I find is resistance to continuous effects and auto wound effects. Fire unfortunately still hurts them decently as well.
On top of this, they don't provide Girded.
They just seem to be a strictly inferior version of Karax.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Mar 2, 2018 17:31:38 GMT
That math is way off. A MAT7 PS18 Attack has <50% chance of killing a Cetrati in one hit. So a fully loaded jack that has to charge kills about 2. And 3 Cetrati take off about 9hp if they put up the shield wall again and you haven't messed up the placement on Vorkesh.
So you either divert a heavy and 2 caster focus for 3 turns (maybe even forcing their caster forward depending on their focus stat) or get a hammer to your anvil to finish the jack off. Preferably something that can get back to relative safety and/or relocate easily like Ferox or an Archidon. Remember, in the above scenario you have paid 12p and a free card for that unit. That is pretty damn cheap.
As to Mak2: I tried her with Cetrati aswell and was disappointed aswell. And now I think I know why. Keeping them as central life ensurance for Makeda is the wrong approach. I'll have to test them differently soonish. Put them off to a flank, toe a zone so Makeda can go hard on the other flank with a unit of Ferox and an Archidon or two, maybe Molik.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
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Post by gordo on Mar 2, 2018 19:49:29 GMT
That math is way off. A MAT7 PS18 Attack has <50% chance of killing a Cetrati in one hit. So a fully loaded jack that has to charge kills about 2. And 3 Cetrati take off about 9hp if they put up the shield wall again and you haven't messed up the placement on Vorkesh. So you either divert a heavy and 2 caster focus for 3 turns (maybe even forcing their caster forward depending on their focus stat) or get a hammer to your anvil to finish the jack off. Preferably something that can get back to relative safety and/or relocate easily like Ferox or an Archidon. Remember, in the above scenario you have paid 12p and a free card for that unit. That is pretty damn cheap. As to Mak2: I tried her with Cetrati aswell and was disappointed aswell. And now I think I know why. Keeping them as central life ensurance for Makeda is the wrong approach. I'll have to test them differently soonish. Put them off to a flank, toe a zone so Makeda can go hard on the other flank with a unit of Ferox and an Archidon or two, maybe Molik. 12 points is NOT cheap to divert a heavy, when a Rhinodon can take the charge, live, and then put far more damage on the charger. 12 points also is not the "real" cost because you are losing a free slot which could be a TyComm, etc. Also I can divert that heavy just as well with a unit of Karax for cheaper. Who are also faster, can't get jammed up thanks to native Tactician, and have Girded. Can a unit of Cetrati do what you need? Absolutely. Can they do it efficiently for their point cost? Not by my reckoning, nor do they really do it better than other options for the same it cheaper points, except for a few niche scenarios.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
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Post by gordo on Mar 2, 2018 19:51:14 GMT
You were right about the math, assuming MAT 6, though. It's actually 48.6% assuming only a MAT 6... And also assuming attacker only has one initial melee attack.
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Post by mrbill on Mar 3, 2018 0:29:04 GMT
The math seems off to me. If we are going straight basic and MAT6 STR18 5/6 attacks hit 21/36 of hits disable a full cetrati outright 2/3 of those fail their tough roll
That puts it at roughly 32% for a single swing kill against a full health cetrati. If we look at trying to kill a 1 health damaged cetrati it is
5/6 attacks hit 35/36 disable 2/3 fail their tough roll
So for a near dead cetrati they get the kill ~54% of swings.
Add in defender's ward and an Agonizer and these numbers fall off a cliff.
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Post by mrbill on Mar 3, 2018 16:07:25 GMT
After that math I figured I should at least assemble the Cetrati. Wow. These are my favorite PP sculpts ever. They are going to see playtime because they look great! The math also says they need Vorkesh, which means I need to find a way to get Vorkesh for free. That puts my first list squarely in the Masters of War camp.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Mar 3, 2018 19:37:40 GMT
After that math I figured I should at least assemble the Cetrati. Wow. These are my favorite PP sculpts ever. They are going to see playtime because they look great! The math also says they need Vorkesh, which means I need to find a way to get Vorkesh for free. That puts my first list squarely in the Masters of War camp. You can only play Cetrati in MoW anyway. Fortunately it also allows Karax (if you find the Cetrati don't perform for you)
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Post by mrbill on Mar 4, 2018 13:57:32 GMT
OK, I think I have a MoW list that will help me learn the game and evaluate my shield infantry choices.
Battlegroup - Xerxis1, Sentry, Krea, Agonizer
Flank security - Max Karax+UA on one flank Max Cetrati+Vorkesh on the other
Primary column - Max Keltarii, Max Swordsmen+UA
TyComm to provide support on the Cetrati side of the column (Xerxis will cover PttL/March for the Karax side)
Floating support assets - Legends of Halaak, Swamp Gobber Bellows crew, Swamp Gobber River Raiders
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Post by jagius021 on Mar 6, 2018 15:01:12 GMT
This list should settle the cetrati vs karax problem...
War Room Army
Skorne - too many shields
Theme: Masters of War 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Archdomina Makeda - WB: +29 - Cyclops Brute - PC: 8 (Battlegroup Points Used: 8) - Titan Sentry - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 15) - Scarab Pack - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 6)
Mortitheurge Willbreaker - PC: 4 Feralgeist - PC: 2
Cataphract Cetrati - Leader & 5 Grunts: 18 - Tyrant Vorkesh - PC: 0 Cataphract Cetrati - Leader & 5 Grunts: 18 Praetorian Karax - Leader & 9 Grunts: 11 - Praetorian Karax Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 4 Praetorian Karax - Leader & 5 Grunts: 7 Praetorian Karax - Leader & 5 Grunts: 7 Tyrant Commander & Standard Bearer - Tyrant & Bearer: 0 Tyrant Commander & Standard Bearer - Tyrant & Bearer: 0
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Mar 6, 2018 15:05:28 GMT
Why?
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Post by oranjejus on Mar 6, 2018 23:09:13 GMT
Because it has Scarabs.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Mar 6, 2018 23:48:07 GMT
With how important holding zones and flags are, Celtari are one of those odd units that do really well in "push" lists. Karax is an instant stopper, especially on mini-feat, and can block LoS for something close to the length of a ruler. I tend to look at them as a "mobile sacrificial wall." Celtari, on the other hand, hold their zone and can score zones much easier.
Also, as an FYI, where the hell did you get 18 for the average heavy hit? *takes a peak at the bronzeback only having 17* The average character jack doesn't even have an 18 hit -.- Your average heavy should be calculated at around 16 with 3 dice on the first hit only, 2 innitials, and 3 extras at 16. Each di should be around 3.5 extra damage leading to a single hit being averaged at 23, 26-27 on the boost.
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Post by mrbill on Mar 6, 2018 23:50:05 GMT
I think I will stick with my list. I would rather not buy double or triple units until I get a feel for how each of them work. I may drop the Karax UA for a 2nd free TyComm to free up my warlock or try to swap in one of the Makedas. I doubt I will regret buying a 2nd TyComm so long as MoW exists.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Mar 7, 2018 0:08:50 GMT
Mak2 double kitty with 2 tycoms and 2 willbreakers x.O; it makes people cry
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