Provengreil believe it or not I don’t typically have issues on scenario with Durst. Especially in FM with 2 champions to contest and jam. My issue in the madrack game was: 1: Could not deal with the Mountain King 2: Lost Prey in the right flank due to a positioning mistake
Dice also exacerbated those issues.
Had I kept Prey and my dice rolled average, the Idrians probably obliterate the champs with 2 Man CRA’s doing an average of 3-4 Damage each and I get 6 of them. Combined with champs of the wall I should be able to clean shop on that flank
Well here is part one of the day I learned many lessons with protectorate. I went to a local Steamroller and ended up playing every single game against an advanced maneuver team member. Needless to say I need a lot more practice with protectorate.
I brought the following Lists: Durst: FM -Heirophant -Castigator -Sanctifier -Reckoner 2 Champions Vilmon Covenenant 2 Max Idrians with UA min chior Mechanik
Testament: EI -Revenger -Vanquisher 2 Max Errants with UA 2 Knights E with UA Knights E 2 Knights E Senny's Mechanik 2 Wracks
I did not take Thyra because I need more practice with her and I am pretty familiar with testament at this point. The Vanquisher is there because I had not assembled my second revenger yet.
Game way was facing off into Gaston so I knew it was going to be a tough fight. He was running Jaga Jaga in Blindwater and Arkadius In WWFF with all the angry Pigs. I was pretty nervous about him dropping arkadius (who can and will assassinate me at any time.) So I panicked, asked about RFP and decided to drop testament Thinking I actually had game into the Jaga list as it only really had rfp via the feat and I could bait that out early. Also, if he did drop arkadius, I would more than likely win that on attrition just by shoving dudes forward. Unlucky for me he ended up dropping jaga (mostly because I am a dodo and asked about rfp)
His List: Mrs. J the gator Gyspy -2 Spitters -Wrastler -Soul Slave Vault 2 Max Croaks Gobber Chef Mist speaker Min ambushers
Scenario: We were playing Breakdown (a terrible scenario for me in this match up)
Deployment: I win the roll off and choose to go first mostly to deny the croaks any ability to play aggressively and remove a boatload of errants. In hindsight I should have gone second given the scenario and I could have forced him to come forward and then jam turn 2. I think this choice actually cost me a big potential advantage this game.
Turn 1: Protectorate! I run literally everything. Cloak of ash goes on the Black unit of errants, Hallowed avenger goes on the Vanquisher, I camp 2 because I don't want to randomly die to drifting AOE's under Signs and portents or a turn 1 feat because dying on bottom of 1 is not OK.
Minions: Ambushers run to catch a handful of errants within his feat. Jaga casts Signs and portents moves up, feats, kills 6 errants. The sacral vault and turtles kills some more errants and a couple knights exemplar. Kroaks stay back.
Turn 2: Protectorate: I upkeep cloak of ash and Hallowed avenger. Errants on left move up, I forget the vault has soulstorm but he graciously allows me to take an errant back so I end up just shooting uselessly at the vault and a turtle. Soul-storm pretty much shuts down the entire flank for me which I did no consider in list slection. The rest of my army just derps around and avoids threat ranges slightly.
Turn 2: Minions: Everything shoots everything. Jaga sings and portents and stays on the hill with Escort up. He obliterates almost my entire army. Luckily my senny is in the left zone so he does not score.
Turn 3: Protectorate: I am in panick mode now because I realize he can out attrition me easily, and I still have 0 ways to deal with the vault so the left flank is gone. Testament activates, feats, brings back a bunch of models and Stays back as safe as possible camping 3. (ghost walk trample will put the wrastler into me which is bad.) I do the best I can to avoid the vaults' soulstorm bubble of nope and Jam with mos of the army, errants on the left kill 2 croaks I think. Knights exemplar charge the turtle, but due to trash dice I only do like 10 or so damage with 4 of them under battle driven. Vanquisher blows up 6 croaks on the right. Revenger charges the vault, does about 10 damage.
Minions: He casts Signs and portents again, moves slightly off the hill to kill some knights jamming his turtle. Vault take s solid free strike from the Revenger. Wraster kills my vanquisher and eats 2 knights so I do not get souls. Basically kills everything but my revenger, testament and 3 knights.
Turn 4: Protectorate: No picture..sorry. Its desperation time, so I go for the Spirit-bomb assassination. I can cast 5 of them jaga is not on the hill OR in escort range, I charge the Turtle and arcane vortexes the first one. 4 Fully boosted spirit-bombs later and 3 boosted 12's for damage force a tough check which jaga fails.
Victory?..... Yeah, I got my butt cheeks handed over to me stuffed and ready to mount over the fireplace on this one. Pretty terrible match up the more I think about it. The sad thing is arkadius is a terrible match up for Durst and honestly I am not good enough to prevent his bull-crap assassinations from going off.. So its very much list chicken here. Gaston is also a very strong player who knows what he is doing and I...need a lot more practice. He is obviously experienced with this match up and played the game really well. I got lucky at the end there and I chalk this one up as a loss at the end of the day. I really think the scenario exacerbated the match up as well, allowing him to stay back the entire game and obliterate me from range.
Next battle report is against War-machinist from the advanced maneuvers team. A really awesome player and great opponent.
He brought Grissel2 storm of the North and Madrack 1 Band of heroes with double champions. I cannot drop testament at all, because I auto lose the madrack 1 match up, but I honestly am worried about durst into that list as well. I don't exactly have a choice and so Its durst vs Madrack1...OHHHHH BOOOOOOOYYYY.
His List: Madrack 1 -Mountain King Max Champs -Skaldi -2 Sorcerers Max Champs -Sorcerer Min warders Max stone Elder 2 Fell Callers
I think that was it!
Scenario: Standoff Kind of meh for me. I love this scenario personally, but I think it favors him in the match up due to madrack 1 being able to just shove models in my face and forcing me to watch while he does it.
Deployment: I win the roll off and choose sides the green thing is an acid bath. I want to go second to buy myself an extra turn of shooting before I have to commit to the zones. I prey the Mountain King, because he is going to screen the champs anyway and I have 0 way to reliably deal with it short of sticking to jacks on it...which My opponent will probably not allow and even then its not a grantee'd kill unless I feel both up with focus AND boundless charge both.
Turn 1: Trolls: He runs everything Pops even ground and puts a few into the stone.
Protectorate: I take some pot shots with idrians, doing about 10 damage to the MK thanks to spikes. The right unit of idrians does decent work on the champs but its all just to bait out his inevitable feat. I repo back to safety and leave champs in position to threaten his lines even if he feats. Heirophant exalts durst harmoniously. Durst pops bulwark, puts hallowed avenger on the sanctifier, and casts decel. Chior sings no spells because all his ranged attacks are magical anyway.
Turn 2: Trolls: Champs move up slightly. Mountain King kills some idrians with a spray triggering righteous vengence. I realize I forgot ricochet was a thing and lose the guide on the right flank thanks to that, meaning the right flank is basically lost (no prey means I cannot actually deal with the champs now.) Madrack feats and casts even ground using blood boon. Champs run in the way on the left flank to screen the MK, which is really bad for me. Stone pops aura and shuffles. Fell callers move around.
Protectorate: I do my vengence moves. Do about 6 damage on the champs on the left with the sanctifier which is spread around. I forget to allocate...*sigh* its going to be one of those days. Idrians take shots at the champs on the right, thanks to dice and sanguine bond I basically do nothing. Champions the right jam. I only attack with 1 because retaliatory strike is a thing. due to some bad dice I have to use all 3 attacks to kill a single sorcerer. I try as hard as I can to remove the champions to try and put 2 heavies into the MK this turn with battle and boundless charge. But dice and 3 successful of tough checks in a row mean I do almost no damage with the idrians and leave most of the champs at 3 or 4 health on the left. I decide its desperation time and hope that my arm 23 def 14 sanctifier can tank a Mounain king. Reckoner on right misses a champion with a boosted shot *sigh* Heirophant exalts durst. Durst puts boundless on the castigator and camps the rest. Covenant moves up aggressively and says no spells to try and deny rage on the MK. Castigator goes into the champs and....tough checks abound and I only kill 1 champ...Sanctifier plops in the way expecting to take a MK and hopefully champs to bring down.
Turn 3 Trolls: I kind of have him in a pickle here, without rage the MK should struggle to kill the sanctifier, and the champs are gummed up by the house. But then we find a small landing sport for madrack to be just slightly out of the books range and he puts rage on the MK and casts even ground. Stone activates and Prays for strength. Running up. A fell caller dismounts and kills my one champion. Skaldi kills some idrians and the other champs kill my other champion. Mountain king goes into the sanctifier, misses its first boosted initial. Lands the second, rolls a 10 for damage. Proceeds to hit the next 4 bought attacks with hard 8's and kills it...yep...Champions go into the castigator, but luckily wiff horribly and only do about 10 damage (average out to 5 per champ so should have done around 20. Warders jam and I realize this game is petty much over.
Protectorate: Durst Upkeeps Bullwark. I allocate to the castigator and reckoner. Chior Battles. Idrians charge the Mountain king in an act of desperation to try and jam and do damage. The castigator Wiffs horribly and only kills 1 champion. Vilmon kills Skaldi with righteous vengence and his normal attack. Idrians charge camps on the right and miss every attack. Durst charges a champion and boosts to hit but misses the 8. I decide the camp the rest. Reckoner kills a warder. Books chants no spells again. Heirophant heals the Book.
*no pictures after this sorry everyone*
Turn 4: Trolls Champions kill the castigator, reckoner, vilmon and idrians. Mountain king kills all but 2 idrians. I am left with literally only durst, chior, and the book.
Protectorate: Heirophant harmoniously exalts durst, moves into LoS of Madrack, boosts a cleansing fire at madrack needing a 10. Misses. Casts it again, misses, I concede.
Painfull Loss....ouch. The good news is my doctor told me i should be walking properly and my back should be feeling better in a week or so... the bad news is well..it goes without saying. Yeah this was another rough match up for me. Exacerbated by bad dice, further exacerbated by mistakes. I should have prayed the left champs, it gives the idrians an easier time of removing them. I also should not have tried to face tank the mountain king, i just though 8's were harder to hit but its not something I should have relied on. Defensive is just not a reliable stat unless you are 15+. I also really wish I had brought Thyra. With cryx not being super prevalent in my local meta, I really think Testament is losing ground. Trolls, skorne, and other factions, have ways to eat through his attrition, and he forces me into very awkward list chicken scenarios in my pairing.
Mistakes: 1: Losing the guide top of 2. Easily preventable, and simply a lack of understanding of my opponents kit. Know your opponents cards fellas. 2: prey on the Mountain King Should have gone on the champions. Mountain king does not care about idrians. 3: Idrians on left Not aggressive enough I was way too passive with the idrians on the left flank. I could have probably dealt with the champs, and if he screens with the king I could have stuck 2 jacks on it with battle and HoV which means it should die...or come pretty darn close. Just a lapse of judgement on my part and lack of forward planning.
The more I look back on the game, the more I see mistakes I made and how I could have salvaged it. It pretty much collapsed for me all in one turn, but that turn was when I made the most mistakes and it cost me the game. A really disappointing showing on my part but a learning experience all the same.
The last 2 games I do not have pictures for but Ill go over them as best I can.
Game 3 into mortenbra 1:
I dropped testament, should have been an easy win, but I didn't understand how overrun worked and my opponent took advantage of that. I ended up getting charged top of 2 by a seether from 16" away and the rest is pretty much history. A really frustrating gotcha but a lesson in knowing how your opponents stuff works.
Game 4 into Cygnar:
My opponent had Nemo 3 double strider and Haley 3 In the trenchers theme. He decided to drop haley 3 to get practice with her and I dropped durst because Getting randomly assassinated would be a lot harder and durst is designed to face down cygnar.
His List: (to the best of my memory) Haley 3: -4 Minutemen Max trenchers with UA Max trencher Long gunners Maxwell Fin 2 Express teams 2 Master gunners Hitch Puppers 2 Trench Busters Ragman Ayana and Holt with Murdock
I am pretty sure that was it but I might be missing something
Scenario: Recon 2
Deployment: I won the roll off, chose sides to give myself more cover with a forest and a house and deployed with my idrians on the far flanks to get around his cloud wall as best I could. He deployed mostly centrally. I put prey on a grenadier on each flank.
Turn 1: Cygnar: Haley and the band of trenchers move up behind the cloudwall. Haley puts up Tac supremacy, and temporal distortion. She puts Granny and Baby Haley into play
Protectorate: Left unit of idrians moves further towards the flank and minifeats. Right unit hides behind the house, leaving an idrian or 2 out in the open to bait the buster and preyed grenadier. The rest of my army moves up very aggressiveness with durst casting, decel and bullwark.
Turn 2: Cygnar: Haley allocates focus to the grenadiers, upkeeps tac supremacy and keeps the echos in play. Grenadiers shoot at idrinans but don't do that much killing 2 on the right flank and one on the left flank. Express teams manage to hit and damage my right Champion. He hides behind the cloudwall again and moves forward a bit.
Protectorate: Idrians on the right, CRA into the trench buster and minifeat, killing it. Idrians on left run to engage his lines. All my jacks run to engage with the sanctifier and Castigator staying B2B. Durst feats and casts decel camping the rest. Champions move into his lines and kill a couple trenchers. Vilmon bases the flag and stone and mortars.
Turn 3: Cygnar: He tries his best to remove what he can, even with ragman he fails to do anything meaningful to my jacks even with a fully loaded trencher and Baby haley going to town on the reckoner. combination of bad dice and arm 23. On the left he kills a handful of idrians with trenchers and maxwell fin. He manages to dismount one champion and kill the other though.
Protectorate: I can win on scenario if I can clear the rectangular zone on my right and destroy the objective. Durst allocates focus to some of the jacks. Castigator uses his star action to remove a large clump of trenchers and buys 2 melee attacks to clear the rectangular zone. Idrians kill the grenadier in the zone to clear it out. Reckoner and sanctifier kill the objective.
Victory...finally. I finally hunkered down and played the durst list effective. I almost dropped after the testament game because It just did not seem to be my day, but I stayed to try and get one good game in for the day and practice with the lists. technically 2-2 but really 1-3 because I should have Lost to gaston. Overall not happy with my performance and have a lot of work to do to prepare for the next steamroller.
Overall thoughts I am dropping testament. His recursion is bonkers good but there is too much on/off in the local meta for him to be relied on particularly paired with durst who needs to be able to give the other list a go when faced with a gross brick like Madrack 1. I will be bringing in thyra for sure now. I need practice with her, but I think overall she fits better in the pairing. Higher damage output, better deliver-ability through her feat, and has game into those tough, high def infantry bricks that trolls can bring, which I currently lack an answer to. I am really excited to get more work in with her.
I am happy with the durst list as is. I am never probably going to use ADR now that SR18 is throwing it out the window. But the core list has versatility and has been reliable into the gun-line match ups. I still have concerns with the staying power of idrians in the face of things like e-leaps and continuous effect AOE's which get around their minifeat, But I think the champions and jacks can play a more forward role in those match ups and be fairly safe. I just need more practice adjusting my army to compensate for the opponent.
I have a few more games in with durst now, and They have been pretty enlightening to his strengths and weaknesses.
One game into Magnus2, was a hard Loss on Scenario, That guy is awful to play into if you cannot spread out. Combined with a scenario like Outlast and it just gets worse from there. I don't think durst can face magnus in any situation honestly. Army is too slow, and magnus will probably win scenario every time.
Another game into Nemo 3 Double Strider. A really tough fight which was unsettling for me. Nemo can remove heavies even under my feat which is ludicrous considering they are 14/25 respectively on my feat turn. Also, the idrians die horribly in the match up, which means I have to keep them back and send my heavies into the meat grinder. Overall I think the Match up is 50/50 for me, mostly because Nemo 3 is dumb. Both striders sit at arm 22 and 23 respectively (Nemo arm buff and Junior Arcane Shield) They will almost always have 2-3 Tokens for boosting and are typically high rat as well thanks to their +2 to hit ability. Prey on them feels counter-productive because they out threat the idrians and will obliterate them at will. Boosted rat 8's will still reliably hit def 17 sadly. The only thing I really have going for me in the match up is the high arm and immunity to non magical ranged attacks on my jacks, so If I can somehow survive the feat turn intact Nemo is going to really struggle to remove the heavies and Pally's later on. Also durst is basically immune to e-leap assassination once the feat is gone.
The last game was into a really obscure Sorchsa 2 list, which hilariously has decent tools going into the match up. Mostly the Greylord Outriders being able to eat an entire unit of idrians and then some, and then being able to repo back to relative safety. The big advantage for me was my Jacks, but Doomies can eat them on non- feat turns so it gets kind of awkward trying to avoid threat ranges. Basically he shoved heavies into one zone on turn 2, abandoned the other round zone and did not base his flag to avoid threat ranges on my idrians. He left a Juggy in charge range of the reckoner and castigator so I loaded them up, boundless charged and even with battle somehow left it on one box. Idrians on right had to stay 19" away from the outriders on the flank to not get obliterated. so i basically just kept them back so he would have to commit to kill them. He fails to remove my heavies on eat turn because my jacks are def 18 while in melee and bullwark so he fails to land kiss of Lyliss needing an 11. I go for a scenario play as I am up 3 at the end of his turn 3 but due to awful dice I fail to win on scenario (vilmon needs a 5 to hit a greylord, rolls a 4, champion mises a doomy needing a 6, another toughs. My reckoner tries to kill some doomies, but tough checks abound. I end up basing the flag with durst, and my opponent proceeds to just barely assassinate me with some really hot damage rolls. Had I put durst slightly closer to the central obstruction though, the assassination fails even with the spikes. as he goes up to def 17 from spells and 15 from the Doomy Dragoon (fenris?) that charged him.
EDIT: A big thing here I totally forgot the bring the book this game because it was late. The book wins me this game hands down...derp!
That game should have been a win for me. But sometimes dice punish you. Other than the durst positioning and a bad play with idrians on the left, I feel I played a pretty good game there. Also, durst is pretty tanky
Thoughts Changes I still have no changes I would make to the list. I just think the more I play new lists from other factions, the more I see counters to it. Idrians are pivitol in some match ups, and dead-weight in others. It just depends o n my opponents tools. I don't think I will pull out the second unit though. I just need to get better with spacing and practice more.
Pairing I am still working on my Thyra List. I have another game with her into Madrack 1 double champs. and she actually plays the match up very well. I am still really concerned with list chicken here and Thyra really does not want to see guns and durst really does not want to face down Heavy arm/def/box skews. I may need to re-consider my thyra list, or I may just have to suck it up and play Vindictus when I drop durst for better overlap in the lists. For now I am going to stick with Thyra though, because she is a lot of fun to play and a very active caster in the right match up.
Played another game with Thyra today. Battle report coming soon. Still learning the faction and making silly newbie mistakes. It was into Gastonne 2 with all the guns. So not a very good match up, but playable if I work at it and the terrain is favorable.
Some thoughts after the last few games: I am having issues with list chicken a lot. It seems that, while both lists are versatile, I am having trouble picking a list when I see the "gunline" or "not gunline" list pair. In that situation it really is a matter of who drops what and that bothers me a lot. I am thinking changing casters will help me out here, but I really like durst and thyra on the table, so I am going to try and overcome this by growing as a player and playing cleaner games.
Thyra is super legit. If I can get more familiar with the faction and put more games in I know I will be able to win consistently with her. I had concerns about her in interdiction but the list hits like a truck, moves deceptively fast, and is highly accurate. I think she shores u dursts weaknesses pretty well and covers some of the scarier match ups like Madrack 1 double champs or any heavy infantry spam for that matter.
I need a lot more practice before Ill be any good. But I am seeing personal growth in how I play the faction. Unlocking thyra is so fun. She has a very wel rounded toolkit and is very active every game. I can see myself playing her for a while.
Finally getting around to posting that thyra report haha. Been a pretty busy week at work and home.
Played a game on vassal, my opponent was playing a magnus 2, Crosse 2 pair. Neither match up is exceptionally good for durst. Magnus can just auto win on most scenarios and has lots of tech to clear idrians out of the zones even under minifeat. Crosse 2 has a commando blob and a trencher blob. Both units are really bad for idrians to face off against. Also, mercs can swing arm by +4 in just about any list thanks to ragman + gorman which means his list can probably crack through my jacks even though on paper it doesn't look that great. Crosse himself is also bonkers with signs 4 fully boosted signs and portents gun shots.
I decide to drop thyra, hoping he will drop magnus, but expecting him to drop crosse2. He drops Cross 2. :
His List: Crosse2: -2 Mules -2 Talons -Reinholdt Max Trencher Commandos with UA and a scattergunner Max Trencher Infantry with UA and 3 Grenades Ragman Gorman Taryn Delarovissi (I think I spelled that right?) ellish Garritty Gibs
This match up felt pretty rough on paper. I am going to take a lot of casualties on the approach, and crosse himself with reinholt can threaten thyra with a consistent assassination which is depressing. Luckily for me I have a handful of things going for me here. Occultation is really helpful to whatever errant unit faces off against the trencher infantry, because they have no way to ignore stealth, and I can buy enough time to use my feat to engage with the errants and follow up with knights exemplar. Also, if I can chew through the trenchers without losing more than 1 full unit of knights exemplar I can probably win on attrition.
Anyway he wins the roll off and chooses to go second which is not good for me. I have a threat range advantage with the errants and my feat, but he can play very far back now and buy himself an entire extra turn of shooting, which is not good for me from an attrition standpoint. I choose the side with the forests to give myself some cover on the approach. An important thing to note here is I replaced one of the knights exemplar senny's with Ellias Gade because pathfinder seems to be a problem for me. I have also considered adding rhupert, but ellias is also a really good combat solo in his own right.
The scenario was Standoff
Protectorate: I run all the things. Thyra puts up Gates of death, puts occultation on the right errants and silence of death on the left errants. Which should have been the other way around. I try to spread out a bit but I am still getting used to vassal and moving all the dudes so they are more clumped than they probably should be.
Merc's He moves dudes forward. Gibs fires a rifle grenade and kills an errant. repo's backwards. Trenchers make a cloudwall of annoyance. I don't realize there is a scatter gunner in the front lines and so left a few errants in range of the commando scattergunners. Clever use of self sac means they only kill a couple errants. The rest of his army just derps around behind the trencher screen.
Protectorate: I make some big mistakes this turn, which is bad because this is a very very important turn for me. I am going to try and put solid work in on the commandos, and try to go up on attrition here. I give thyra pathfinder form the objective. I activate thyra first, she casts carnage and pictorially I forget to swap Occultation onto the left unit of errants which is a big problem. she kills 2 commandos, and overtakes back. Errants on the right charge some commandos and kill a few of them. Left errants run to get in the way as best they can, but that flank is about to collapse. My jacks and knights exemplar position to counter attack. Ellias shoots some commandos as well and kills a 1 after a passed tough check.
Mercs: to put it simply, He obliterates all the errants and some knights exemplar. Yeah, not even self sac saved me from commandos (though it did help!) the left flank collapses and I am really regretting not putting up occultation. Score: Mercs: 2, Protectorate: 0
Protectorate: The objective gives BoM pathfinder. I forget to allocate to BoM....*sigh*. Thyra also upkeeps Gates of death. Knights exemplar on the left minifeat, kill 5 trenchers and call it a day. Thyra feats, kills some commandos, and casts carnage and puts Silence of death on BoM to compensate for my mistake with allocating. BoM walks up to the Mule and thanks to hot dice kills it with just 3 attacks. On the right, knights exemplar, ellias, and the last remaining errants clear the round zone. Knights exemplar in my top zone kill ellish. Score: Mercs: 2, Protectorate: 2
Mercs: I learn here that signs and portents fully boosted rof 4 guns are not nice to play against. Between ragman, gorman rust, and a single stab from a talon to make BoM stationary, I get to watch Crosse Kill BoM from full health in 3 shots. His last shot shoots ellias who sacrifices the errant UA to stay in the zone. The last commando kills ellias with a grenade. The mule now does not have to go into to BoM and contest my zone killing the senny and 2 knights. Score: Mercs: 4, Protectorate: 2
Protectorate: It was getting really late at this point, so I make a few tired brain mistakes here that close this game out. Thyra upkeeps Gates. My sanctifier gets pathfinder. Knights exemplar minifeat and go in, I kill the talon and watch the stupid commando tough...again. Low dice roll only does about 6 or so damage to the mule though. I misplace a knights exemplar so he is blocking thyra from finishing off the mule. I have to stranglehold him to charge in with thyra and proceed to wiff all damage with her on the last 2 bought attacks leaving the mule on about 5 boxes. had I placed the knights e properly I kill the mule and score 2 points. knowing this is probably the end I just plop thyra back a bit knowing reinholt is coming with crosse in tow. Also I forget to activate the errant banner so I cannot contest with him meaningfully in later turns. Score: Mercs: 5, Protectorate: 3
Mercs: Crosse manages to somehow not kill thyra because he was unable to keep 1 soul for signs and portents. But does manage to get that stupid tough commando into my zone to score 3 and win on scenario.
sadly a loss for the faithful *sigh*
Man, stupid mistakes. I don't know if its vassal throwing me off, or just playing too late at night...or maybe I am just getting old. But lots of really dumb mistakes here. If I allocate to BoM I can potentially wreck both the talon and the mule. If I stealth the left errants the flank does not collapse and I can engage the trenchers the next turn. If I had killed the mule I could have extended the game. I should have used gates on turn 4 to go closer to the middle of the board as well to claim more cover from the forest and to close in on crosse. Not my worst game ever, but still a lot of scatterbrain mistakes. I am really surprised at how well that went though. Considering I have almost 0 way to ignore the cloud wall and commandos are actually realy good in the face off vs errants.
Crosse is obnoxious though. Being able to just throw out 4 fully boosted signs and portents shots is dumb. He can threaten thyra which forced me to play a bit more cautiously this game with her. Me thinks durst would do really well into this match up. He has no good way to remove my jacks on feat turn under decel, and while my idrians will not do to well into commandos or the trencher cloud-wall, I can jam with the champs of the wall and follow up with idrian charges. Also, champs of the wall would be a pain for him to remove.
Cloud-walls are a pain for me right now. I have no real way to counter them and I do not know any in faction support outside of rhoven and CO that helps see through them. I have played about 5 match ups now where cloud walls have turned a game that should be advantaged to durst into a really annoying threat range dance. If anyone has any advice for how to counter clouds with my current pairing I would appreciate it. Its starting to get frustrating, almost to the point where i am really considering starting to run Sevvy 2 over durst just to ingore clouds entirely.
Got a game with durst into Nemo 3 and the match up is...actually way better than I thought based on the last game Passage is a big deal here because only strange-ways can give out magical attacks and durst does not really care about e leap feat assassinations unless he can get a firefly within 5" which My champions can actually shut down. Here is the report:
Opponents List: Nemo 3: Heavy Metal -Squire Dynamo Firefly 2 X Strider 2 X min mechanics Strangeways Junior -Firefly Jakes -Thunderhead
and that's it. The scenario was spread the net I lost the roll of and got first turn. My opponent wanted to choose sides to deny my cover and he also wanted to stall scenario long enough to shoot things dead. Prey goes on both striders
Protectorate: I mostly run. Avoiding storm strider threat with the idrians and BG. Durst pops Decel, bullwark, and hallowed avenger on the sanctifier. Champs run into annoying places.
Cygnar: He stays out of my threat ranges with the striders, waiting for me to commit to scenario and not wanting to take meaningless damage early on from idrian CRA's. Junior puts Arcane shield on one strider. Nemo puts electrify on the other. Nemo also puts Lightning Feild on Dynamo (the +2 strength spell) and chills. Jakes puts up Sidekick on Thunderhead.
Turn 2: I decide I am going to leave the idrians back. My heavies can get passage and be immune to most of his shooting and dynamo needs 9's to hit the sanctifier thanks to cover + bullwark. So I am not super scared of losing the sanctifier. If he blows his feat to kill it...well I wont complain either. Champs both run to contest and engage the fireflies, shutting them down. Idrians stay out of the strider threat. Durst pops Decel and chills behind the sanctifier, out of Los of everything by the blue strider and camping 1.
Cygnar: My opponent and I decide we both want to see how tanky durst is. He cannot unjame his fireley AND go the assassination so we just try to see if the Strider under feat can do it. Its dice off 5 and the strider needs to hit def 15. So he gets 1 fully boosts damage roll and 1 not fully boosted damage roll. the first one hits, does about 8 damage which durst turns into 3. The second shot hits, does about 4 damage. Nemo gets magic weapons from strangeways and tries to e-leap durst to death, but at dice off 8 he does not get the job done leaving durst actually fairly healthy. We decide to play it from an attrition point now. The striders try and fail to kill the champs engaging the fireflies but only succeed in dismounting both. The Junior tries to finish off the champ on the right, wiffs damage and luckily gets missed by the ret strike. Both fireflies fail to kill the champs and the ret strike on the left does decent damage. Dynamo gets magic weapons from strangeways and does a small amount of damage to the sanctifier. Score: Protectorate: 2, Cygnar: 0
Protectorate: Its feat turn and committing time. Durst allocates 1 to the reckoner. Both champs beat up the fireflies some more. The champ on the right kills Junior as well. Idrains on both sides do CRA's into the Striders doing OK damage. Idrians on left also kill the Firefly. Durst gives the reckoner and castigator boundless, camps 1 and moves behind the house to not get randomly assassinated. Chior sings passage on the jacks to negate nemo's ability to retaliate under my feat. I want to run the sanctifier to the zone to score but Dynamo is threatening durst so I have to play it safe. Both heavies go into the strider on the right and leave it on 5 boxes. My mechanic heals the sanctifer a bit and the book sings no spells. Score: Protectorate: 3, Cygnar: 0
Cygnar: *forgot to take pictures sorry* Nemo chooses to feat because he needs to get work done this turn or lose on scenario. Strider on left clears the zone by himself. Nemo and Finch kills some idrians and Nemo himself does almost kills villmon with a chain lightning. Strangeways gives Dynamo magic weapons, and Dynamo shoots at the sanctifer but misses the first shot even with the re-roll. My opponent concedes, because All I need to do is score 2 next trun which should be easy because I can cap either the flag or my rectangular zone and be fine.
That match up was...interesting. Passage really saves my bacon there and its cool how I out-threat his whole army in melee and can bully the board. The champs were the MVP's though. Stalling scenario and being a pain in the butt to remove. Terrain helped me a lot this game though. The house allows me to play more aggressively because 16/21 jacks are horrible to remove at range. and the outer train gave my champs really solid cover from the striders. I think if I were to do anything different, I would have kept durst more behind the house on Turn 2 to avoid any chance of that assassination going off. All he needs is a couple spikes and I am in trouble.
Overall really happy with the list performance here.
I think the biggest take-away for me from this is to play patiently. I don't need to battle all the time, in fact, I think with this list, its better to do warding or passage just to deny my opponent tools. Keeping the idrians back and waiting to commit also put pressure on my opponent to respect them and stay back. In fact, the entire army really caught my opponent off gaurd with how far it could threat once the lines got engaged. I am still concerned about focus management with durst though, and against a list with more scenario presence I think spread the net becomes really hard. Magnus 2 for example would be really problematic for me, considering his feat is basically a timewalk into this durst list.
As much as everyone is scared about Nemo3 right now, the Protectorate does better than most because of Passage. It really shuts his game down. Some of our list builds don't work so great into him, but Durst does okay thanks to the Choir.
Problem is building a list that takes Nemo3 AND Haley3 on with a fair-or-better fight is really, really hard. Neither is difficult for us to deal with when tech'd for, but the tech required for both is hard to get into one list, leaving us vulnerable to Cygnar list-chicken and vulnerable into other factions.
RE your request for cloud wall denial, Crosse2 isn't as bad as Haley3. At least his Trenchers that poop out clouds have to actually stay in them, giving you charge targets that you'd otherwise lack. However! I've played against Trenchers since the beginning of Mark II, so am familiar with dealing with the cloud wall. Stuff I'd recommend (specific to Trenchers but useful overall):
1.) Rhoven, obviously and as you mentioned, but he only works on one model. Make it a good model. Vessel of Judgment, a Colossal, a Vanquisher, and a Redeemer are all ideal pairs. Pick your poison. Pair a Colossal with Feora2 for hilarity. Deliverer Flame Burst can also work too, but Rhoven isn't in Faithful Masses (neither is the Vessel, I know, but the Vessel can be taken in other themes with Rhoven while the Flame Burst can't).
2.) Sevy2. Awareness is a helluva drug. Note well that because of this you will likely not see much of a cloud wall and will need to focus on Admonishers, Ashes to Ashes, and Continuous Effects to effectively splat Dug In Trenchers. Idrians *can* do it, but expect them to be eating more fire than normal because your opponent can dedicate to killing them rather than worry about staying safe.
3.) Scenario. Clouds require you to bury further into scenario than you'd normally do, but this isn't necessarily bad. Basically you walk/trample through the clouds with high impact pieces, effectively making them annoying but not game breaking. And they have to leave themselves in range of this if they want to remain relevant on scenario. When they have the dude who created the cloud still there, you can leverage charges with things like Cavalry, Dervishes, Blood of Martyrs, etc. Infantry that pack cloud effects that don't expire when they do are generally pillow-fisted in melee and there are enough of them that it's hard to set up heavies ready to counter charge what you put through the cloud screen. Warcasters or Warlocks that do are usually limited in their ability to do so (HR, Kolgrimma), have other issues that need to be addressed and might limit their game plan (Lukas), can only put down one (Ravyn, Gaspy2), or do so via Feat (Jarl). Making it so that you threaten scenario zones with tramples helps keeps you in the game and prevents them from locking you down. Drastically reduces your efficiency, sure, but that's the point of the strategy. I've been playing Amon into Haley3 with mixed success recently, with the cloud wall providing a nuisance more than a game-tilting advantage. And that's with me going second both times so I get disadvantageous scenario placement and the wall can be used to maximum effect against me.
4.) Fast Stuff and General Denial. Know you're facing clouds? Take your Vengers/Flame Bringers wide up the side of the board Turn 1, ready to flank scenario. Be cagey with Daughters, then run and engage. Minifeat and Shield Wall into it with TFG, letting them come to you. If squishy infantry are something you commonly face, don't be afraid to get a targeting beacon up there for Cleansers.