danx
Junior Strategist
Posts: 120
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Post by danx on Feb 20, 2018 12:51:56 GMT
People seem to not all love the spawning vessel.
Its a great piece and often not appreciated.
I'd like to make a few things clear to how it can be played.
First of all you need to know your lesser warbeasts.
1) Shredder is very powerful. Flank means it can deal a lot of damage. 2) Stingers have Spray 6 Rat4. Assault. These guys can spray along way. Boosted Rat4 hits Def14 10% of the time. 3) Harriers are fast and can get over your other stuff because of flying. I think they are the worst lesser, but they are easy to deploy.
They also have useful animus. Relentless charge, Counterblast and Elusive are all worth 1 fury when you need them.
Lessers like to charge for free. Lylth1, Abby2, Sorceress on Hellion and the star of the lesser warbeast - The Beast Mistress.
Lesser Warbeasts like global buffs that don't target just them:
Thag1, Valy1, Kryssa1, Abby2 have great buffs for them. Thag2 can't buff their damage and let them charge for free - but his hyper aggressive spell and proposed sac pawn are a fun looking combo.
Second the Spawning vessel gives you great threat range. A 6 man spawning vessel, moves 6, places with 3, then the beast can be enegisered by the Beast mistress, giving 11" of movement before it activates (which could be a charge assult spray for 15" that's 26" of threat. That's very far for about a 50% chance of killing a Def14 solo on say a flag. 2" more in Oracles.
Third. Now we are cooking. Keeping the pot full is easy. 3 things need to die near to the pot. The easiest way to do this is to keep a unit near by and kill it yourself. I've most successfully used archers at 13 points for 10, they are quite cheap, but in Oracles you could take the Shamblers minions - who fill the pot at very low cost. With the archers I could move them, shoot them, then kill some of them to make sure I get a free beast each turn. Or you can take the Gatorman cooking pot too - and generate D3 corpses that way. The final way to fill the pot it to kill its own people - but only do that as a last resort - because you reduce the threat range (for next turn) and you lower the collection range for future turns. Still the pot ladies killing each other rolls are pretty fun (and so annoying if they miss too much).
incubi are also good to put in the pot. So the archers unit near a pot - if your opponent kills some - but you think might not kill enough - give them an incubi to kill - they might kill that too - or if they don't you can charge/run it forwards.
Strategies to use against the pot.
Say I take: Double Pot, Archers+UA and Incubi.
My opponent has the following choices: 1) Ignore these models. (Archers shoot, Pot kills archers/each other.) No incubi spawn. 2) Shoot the pots The pots are arm 18 8 boxes, and far back. It takes quality shooting to kill them and brings things forwards. 3) Shoot the archers giving me free Shredders/Harriers/Stingers.
This level of recursion can take a lot of practice to do quickly. The clock is a big enemy for these mechanics so it can take a bit of practice to get it up to speed - but its very effective.
I've yet to run the Shamblers with it - but I think because the Gator man can collect only living corpses and the pot can collect living or undead corpses - they will work very well together.
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Post by jediguru on Feb 20, 2018 20:59:57 GMT
It's true that the pot is not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. The main issue I see with it is for 7 points there are often more appealing options available. I keep trying to squeeze it into lists for fun and almost always end up taking it out for something else.
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newsun
Junior Strategist
Posts: 140
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Post by newsun on Feb 20, 2018 21:22:18 GMT
It's true that the pot is not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. The main issue I see with it is for 7 points there are often more appealing options available. I keep trying to squeeze it into lists for fun and almost always end up taking it out for something else. This always comes back to the fact lessors are just not what they used to be. Also with themes, you may likely be giving up free points on useful models to spawn lessors which is often not optimal.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Feb 20, 2018 22:10:20 GMT
I had a kryssa list I really liked for a wee bit, with full hexhunters, bfs, pot and 75pt of mostly flying beasts. Gave me a free beastmistress, bayal and sorceress. Alas, since the nerf I have to pay for one of those solos, which costs me a shredder. I had three right from the start and I don't know two will get the job done. I was really bummed out by that nerf, because this was the only theme list thus far that I enjoyed making.
Anyway, for now Id run the pot with kryssa, lylyth1 and kallus1, because the first two can buff the mistress-pack and kallus likes all the corpsetokengames. I guess Vayl1 one could be on it as well, for a lategame turn with incite and a swollen mistress-pack?
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Post by davycannonhound on Feb 21, 2018 5:10:26 GMT
Shredders are good. Stingers are not (though now that counterblast is cheaper very specific lists MAY be able to use them as an animus bot) Harriers are good as animus bots and transfer targets, as well as contesters that you have to put just a tad bit more work into than you'd want to.
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Post by josephkerr on Feb 21, 2018 5:16:27 GMT
Danx love the ideas! U may consider a Boil Master instead of incubii in ur suggested set up. Its cheaper, provides Puppet Master, and adds d3 corpses to a Spawning Vessel every turn. So with free archer ua and craelix, you can add the cauldron and vessels for a 32 point package. With a unit of raptors, azrael, zuriel, and bolt thrower, you have a 100 point package that fits a ton of our casters. Id like to try it with Vayl1 myself...
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whydak
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by whydak on Feb 21, 2018 7:32:29 GMT
I played with Vessel and Mistress in CotD before Craelix release and I liked it a lot. Now I can't get points to fit in my Thagrosh1 list. But new Croc Pot makes me want to try it again Maybe with Bethayne in CotD or with Thagrosh2 to keep lessers coming. I'm preparing for big event 17-18.03 but after that I will flood this forum with by derp-lists
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haurukh
Junior Strategist
Fyanna, Favourite Child of Everblight
Posts: 202
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Post by haurukh on Feb 22, 2018 23:38:35 GMT
I would like to add here that Kryssas Reposition and the Oracles apparition bonus can really help make a min. unit of the vessel viable.
Without a SPD boost however, I feel the min. unit is just not really usable, as you loose collection range AND speed for every missing grunt. That makes it almost impossible to collect corpses from the frontline and you don't have enough grunts to kill.
A min unit in Oracles can however be surprisingly helpful, it allows to score zone fairly cheaply and you might get 1 or two beasts just from dead spell martyrs, shepherds or our own beasts.
Of course the boil master is also incredibly helpful to circumvent the speed problem without having to just take activations and our own models to feed the pot far behind the lines.
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whydak
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by whydak on Feb 23, 2018 15:28:49 GMT
I would like to add here that Kryssas Reposition and the Oracles apparition bonus can really help make a min. unit of the vessel viable. Without a SPD boost however, I feel the min. unit is just not really usable, as you loose collection range AND speed for every missing grunt. That makes it almost impossible to collect corpses from the frontline and you don't have enough grunts to kill. A min unit in Oracles can however be surprisingly helpful, it allows to score zone fairly cheaply and you might get 1 or two beasts just from dead spell martyrs, shepherds or our own beasts. Of course the boil master is also incredibly helpful to circumvent the speed problem without having to just take activations and our own models to feed the pot far behind the lines. I'm afraid Spawning Vessel can't score becouse pot itsels is not warrior model. There was infernal claryfication on PP rules forum. Anyway, I really want to play this conflictchamber.com/#ca201b_-0ubmcOaL29cN29bbbbfUbacobkbla-a-jXb2b2Legion Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Children of the Dragon (Bethayne 1) Bethayne, Voice of Everblight [+20] - Nephilim Bloodseer [8] - Nephilim Soldier [9] - Shredder [4] Beast Mistress [4] - Shredder [4] Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1] Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1] Blighted Nyss Warlord [5] Incubus (5) [0(6)] Spell Martyr [1] Blighted Nyss Hex Hunters (max) [15] - Bayal, Hound of Everblight [6] Blighted Nyss Swordsmen (min) [9] Blighted Nyss Swordsmen (min) [9] Boil Master & Spirit Cauldron [5] Spawning Vessel (max) [7] Spawning Vessel (max) [7]
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Mar 8, 2018 6:52:17 GMT
I want to try a min pot + boil master. I don't think anything pertaining to lessers is really worth fielding a list around right now, but for 10 points, it's not hard to fit into a list and its impact has a much greater chance of potentially outweighing its cost. By turn 3 you've potentially paid for the combo if you didn't roll awful for the corpse generation.
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danx
Junior Strategist
Posts: 120
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Post by danx on Mar 9, 2018 13:59:01 GMT
The boil master is kind of cool. I think you want something else he can help out too really, I like the idea of Shamblers - but can't run 2 units of minions in theme I do have a Sacral vault I've never used but mainly painted... You have the spare corpses of the pot ladies if need be too.
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danx
Junior Strategist
Posts: 120
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Post by danx on Mar 9, 2018 14:05:23 GMT
This looks very silly. Should gain 2 Shredders
Legion Army - 75 / 75 points
(Thagrosh 1) Thagrosh, Prophet of Everblight [+28] - Naga Nightlurker [8] - Typhon [24] Beast Mistress [4] - Shredder [4] Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1] Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1] Blighted Nyss Swordsmen (max) [15] Boil Master & Spirit Cauldron [5] Gatorman Bokor & Bog Trog Swamp Shamblers [10] Spawning Vessel (max) [7] Spawning Vessel (max) [7] Sacral Vault [17]
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Post by cainuslupus on Mar 9, 2018 21:56:39 GMT
I want to try a min pot + boil master. I don't think anything pertaining to lessers is really worth fielding a list around right now, but for 10 points, it's not hard to fit into a list and its impact has a much greater chance of potentially outweighing its cost. By turn 3 you've potentially paid for the combo if you didn't roll awful for the corpse generation. Tell how it went. I'm interested for my Vayl2 list that already has pot.
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Hjard
Junior Strategist
Posts: 123
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Post by Hjard on Mar 12, 2018 8:40:07 GMT
The boil master is kind of cool. I think you want something else he can help out too really, I like the idea of Shamblers - but can't run 2 units of minions in theme The Spirit Cauldron (not the Boil Master, the gator is just decoration in that unit), has 2 other spells most people tend to overlook. Puppet Master and Spectral Leash are almost enough to warrant the unit, given that they are also sturdy contesting pieces. Also: It can only give out to one model per turn anyway. So as long as the Spawning Vessel is alive it won't need to do anything else. Vessel already full? There is no turn where Puppet Master wouldn't be useful.
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Post by Cheesebeard on Mar 31, 2018 22:24:04 GMT
The biggest problem with the spawning vessel is that it can't score zones - same with the boil master cauldron - because they are not "warrior units" and so don't meet the criteria. It's a really unfortunate ruling, especially when immobile, inanimate, created objects like a storm pod can score... So annoying...
We can hope that it'll be fixed in the upcoming steamroller release, giving the unit significantly less downsides.
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