jloe
Demo Gamer
Posts: 17 
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Post by jloe on Feb 19, 2018 14:48:14 GMT
Hi
Recently picked up cryx and have been playing some casual games in general. Started tournament preparation though and have been playing into a two list pair of Issyria in the mage hunter theme and Kaelyssa in the dawnguard theme (I don't know the actual names).
The two lists are (may be missing the odd model but pretty confident this is close);
Kaelyssa
Sphinx
Harpy
Harpy
Max Sentinels + UA + Soulless
Max Sentinels + UA + Soulless
Sentinel Scythir
Arcanist Mechanic
Arcanist Mechanic
Arcanist Mechanic
and
Issyria
Pheonix
Sphinx
Magehunter Strike Force
Magehunter Infiltrators + Eyriss 3
Magehunter Assassin
Magehunter Assassin
Arcanist
Arcanist
I'm playing mostly Denny Scourge and Witch Coven dark host. But having played a few games with very mixed results against both lists I'm wondering if I'm missing anything major in terms of the match ups.
What would the communities preferred drop be into the two lists? Is there anything that I should be focusing on to pick up advantages against his lists?
Thanks
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jloe
Demo Gamer
Posts: 17
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Post by jloe on Feb 19, 2018 15:07:41 GMT
Should have included the lists I'm currently playing;
Denny 1 - Scourge
Nightmare
Deathripper
Deathripper
Max Raiders + UA
Gunslingers
Nyss Hunters
Raider Captain
Witch Coven - Darkhost
Stalker
Stalker
Deathripper
Deathripper
Max Bane Warriors + UA
Max Bane Warriors + UA
Min Bane Knights
Machine Wraith
Tartarus
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Post by Gamingdevil on Feb 19, 2018 15:35:37 GMT
I find that Coven is actually pretty decent into Issyria, but you might need to add in some Bane Cavalry. They're very accurate and, together with Curse of Shadows, easily murder Mage Hunters (charging through them and being able to continue the charge even if you fail to kill on the impact is really useful). If you have a Wraith Engine included, the Mage Hunters will struggle to damage your banes, especially at range. You probably won't be able to add the Wraith Engine until you move to higher point games though. The theme offers the Witches clouds to hide behind and you can use your feat to blunt the effectiveness of their range attack and/or Issyria's feat.
This can also be decent into the Kaelyssa list, but her battle group is very threatening to your caster because of Phantom Hunter.
In both cases, you will have to try your best to keep your caster safe because they are both effective at assassinating your squishy caster and have ways to get around clouds/stealth. Use your feat wisely and keep your casters as far back as possible while feeding your opponent more pressing targets to deal with (Banes work well).
Your Denny list is too dependant on stealth and high defense to play into either of those lists I fear. Gunslingers and Nyss Hunters will just die (and the latter are expensive so it really hurts to lose them) and both Denny and Nightmare don't get much mileage out of their Stealth.
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jloe
Demo Gamer
Posts: 17
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Post by jloe on Feb 19, 2018 16:39:51 GMT
Thanks for the reply! The bane cavalry and the wraith engines are both things which I have been considering including at the minute. They both seem excellent but do you need both to make it work or are the cavalry on their own enough.
Also with regards to the cavalry specifically as I have no experience using them, what are their respective strengths and how do you find them typically working in games? Also typically do you take min units or max units?
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Post by Gamingdevil on Feb 20, 2018 8:08:30 GMT
Thanks for the reply! The bane cavalry and the wraith engines are both things which I have been considering including at the minute. They both seem excellent but do you need both to make it work or are the cavalry on their own enough. Also with regards to the cavalry specifically as I have no experience using them, what are their respective strengths and how do you find them typically working in games? Also typically do you take min units or max units? I see you're playing at the 50-point level? I think one unit of Riders will be enough as you probably won't be able to squeeze the Wraith Engine in. They are ARM 18 and the Mage Hunters don't have Combined Ranged Attacks, so they should be mostly fine without the WE. Always go for the max unit unless you have a specific reason for only going minimum. Their strengths are taking down medium to hard targets with extreme accuracy. Creative use of impact attacks coupled with Curse of Shadows can also make them a terror to infantry. What I mean by this is, they're MAT 7, or 8 with Tartarus, that means they have a good chance to hit most infantry with impacts and with POW 12 (14 with CoS) they will also kill most infantry. Even if they don't kill, they can just continue on their merry way to their charge targets because of Curse of Shadows' secondary effect. Being able to move through jamming models also enables you to move the required 3" to trigger impacts. Ghostly and Reposition also makes them very effective to jam or score zones after they kill what they needed to. Also, remember that Vengeance triggers on damage. If he's taking pot shots just to deal chip damage, then he may very well trigger it without killing a single Rider. Use your superior threat range to your advantage. Try not to go into the Sentinels on their Iron Zeal turn, unless you get Curse of Shadows and/or Dark Shroud on your targets. Otherwise you will not kill enough and they will retaliate with Vengeance. |
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jloe
Demo Gamer
Posts: 17
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Post by jloe on Feb 20, 2018 14:38:37 GMT
Ok, so roughly speaking the Riders are very hard for the Isyria list to deal with period. You position to out threat and give the opponent a hard decision to make on how to approach them, which enables the coven feat to protect the bane infantry coming in as a second wave the turn after.
Vs the Kaelyssa list, how dangerous do we feel the assasination is vs coven? I mean my assumption is that you'd be playing to keep the three witches outside of her threat range in the mid game while she gets to shoot the Egregore which at worst means you take 6 dmg from triple 6's. I guess as well she can't take the shot without phantom hunter assuming you block LOS, which means no refuging away to safety.
Is the view that Coven is our better drop into the faction, assuming Bane riders are included to smooth the Isyria match up out?
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Post by Gamingdevil on Feb 20, 2018 15:42:56 GMT
Ok, so roughly speaking the Riders are very hard for the Isyria list to deal with period. You position to out threat and give the opponent a hard decision to make on how to approach them, which enables the coven feat to protect the bane infantry coming in as a second wave the turn after. Vs the Kaelyssa list, how dangerous do we feel the assasination is vs coven? I mean my assumption is that you'd be playing to keep the three witches outside of her threat range in the mid game while she gets to shoot the Egregore which at worst means you take 6 dmg from triple 6's. I guess as well she can't take the shot without phantom hunter assuming you block LOS, which means no refuging away to safety. Is the view that Coven is our better drop into the faction, assuming Bane riders are included to smooth the Isyria match up out? Kaelyssa's Phantom Hunter can go on any jack in the battle group. It's hard to stay safe from her, though the battle group in that particular list seems ok. You're pretty much spot on about the Riders. Coven is a good matchup in general because they can be good to seize the alpha strike. Most Black Industries lists should give Issyria a run for her money because of Carapace, unless she's playing the non mage hunter version. Accurate infantry spam, like Ghost Fleet or Scourge of the Broken Coast should also do well as they Retribution is generally rather fragile and probably won't be able to deal with you before you arrive. This should of course all be taken with a grain of salt depending on the opposing list/caster. |
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Feb 21, 2018 11:42:09 GMT
Gamingdevil are you sure about the interaction between curse of shadows and impact attacks? I realize I sound like I am challenging you, I am not, I just play with a group that I can predict often questions what anyone does. I would like to be able to point out why what you say is correct if it ever comes up. The rule as I remember it on impacts says something along the lines that if a cavalry model fails to kill something with its impact attack then it must stop. I understand that curse of shadows allows you to move through people, but again I can predict people telling me that I can’t do both then.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Feb 21, 2018 12:21:38 GMT
Gamingdevil are you sure about the interaction between curse of shadows and impact attacks? I realize I sound like I am challenging you, I am not, I just play with a group that I can predict often questions what anyone does. I would like to be able to point out why what you say is correct if it ever comes up. The rule as I remember it on impacts says something along the lines that if a cavalry model fails to kill something with its impact attack then it must stop. I understand that curse of shadows allows you to move through people, but again I can predict people telling me that I can’t do both then. Not a problem. Prime doesn't say what you think it says, it says instead After resolving the impact attacks, the charging cavalry model resumes its charge movement. The charging model does not resume its movement if it is pushed, slammed, thrown, or placed while it was stopped. In practice this usually means that you can't keep on moving if a model is still in the way, but Curse of Shadows circumvents this. Some threads on the rules forum that confirm this: privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?276888-Kaya-3-s-feat-Moon-Shadow-and-contacting-models-before-moving-3-inchesprivateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?276316-Curse-of-shadows-and-impact-attacksNot that making impact attacks is optional, so you can move through as many models as you want and stop when contacting the one that is most convenient for you. |
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jloe
Demo Gamer
Posts: 17
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Post by jloe on Feb 21, 2018 14:14:32 GMT
that's actually pretty ridiculous, so it effectively makes blocking the bane riders charging the back of a zone impossible assuming that they can actually place their bases at the end of the movement. So jamming them with a screen is virtually pointless.
I'd assume this also works identically with veil of mists as you can choose to move through models in the same manner as COS. Interesting, I need to get a unit in then, thanks guys!
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Post by Gamingdevil on Feb 21, 2018 14:59:23 GMT
that's actually pretty ridiculous, so it effectively makes blocking the bane riders charging the back of a zone impossible assuming that they can actually place their bases at the end of the movement. So jamming them with a screen is virtually pointless. I'd assume this also works identically with veil of mists as you can choose to move through models in the same manner as COS. Interesting, I need to get a unit in then, thanks guys! It does indeed, this is why Coven (and really any Curse of Shadows caster) is so strong with cavalry. Just remember that neither Veil of Mists, nor Curse of Shadows lets you ignore the affected models for line of sight purposes, so you still need to see your charge target. For those that played in MK2: Tall in the Saddle also doesn't exist anymore, so doesn't save you  |
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Feb 21, 2018 19:49:36 GMT
Thanks for clearing it all up Gamingdevil just when I think I know the rules, I realize very quickly that I don’t. When I grow up I’m I want to be a smart person! |
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Hjard
Junior Strategist
Posts: 123
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Post by Hjard on Feb 23, 2018 8:17:39 GMT
I wanted to say "but remember Veil of Mists doesn't prevent freestrikes unlike curse" then I remembered that those friggin Bane idiots have ghostly all the time... Goddammit they are so frustrating to play against*grumblegrumble*
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jloe
Demo Gamer
Posts: 17
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Post by jloe on Feb 23, 2018 10:18:43 GMT
Just played the first game with proxied bane riders into the Kaelyssa list. Scenario was the Pit. Lists were;
Kaelyssa 50 Defenders
Hyrda
Harpy
Harpy
Max Sentinels + UA + Souless
Max Sentinels + UA + Souless
Arcanist Mechanik
Arcanist Mechanik
Arcanist Mechanik
Witch Coven 50 Dark Host
Stalker
Stalker
Night wretch
Night wretch
Min Bane Warriors + UA
Min Bane Warriors + UA
Max Bane Riders
Tartarus
Soul Trapper
So the game basically went as an exercise in positioning, I won the roll to go first and chose to go second (not sure if mistake will elaborate). Basically the riders were pretty untouchable and wiped an entire unit of sentinels out on their own, killed a Harpy and controlled their flank perfectly which after 2 hours of attrition meant that while we were 4-4 on scenario I had full coven, 4 full health riders, a night wretch in the zone, and a stalker vs Kaelyssa, 3 sentinels, a couple of arcanists, and half a hydra. At which point we resolved it.
I definitely see how they skew that match up further, but honestly I feel like if I played that match up 5 times more I'd win another 2 and lose 3.
What would the community think of going first or second? I chose second as it meant he couldn't start to score and I had the ability to counter his feat with mine. But due to the sentinels having vengeance and a greater threat than the bane warriors he just sniped a couple of key pieces (bane ua's) Would I be better off to take the first turn and feat first?
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Hjard
Junior Strategist
Posts: 123
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Post by Hjard on Feb 23, 2018 11:56:29 GMT
Coven Feat doesn't protect you from Kaelyssa / other BG model sniping out key models. As Phantom Hunter makes them ignore LOS, reducing LOS to 5" does nothing.
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