germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Nov 2, 2018 13:01:48 GMT
My problem with Madelyn is that she costs points. And FKG can be free, offer protective value, and leave said points open for something else. Like a Scyir for tactician. From a tactical perspective, my problem is Sucker! As a faction of single wound models, and Sucker! being obligatory, the sort of model that you'd hold back to stick around to take the hit is terribly easy to kill, and usually required further on in the game. Unlike other factions we don't really have either the throwaway model or sturdy multi-box model to be appropriate Sucker! targets. I haven't played Madelyn in MkIII because she does feel like deadweight. CMD 7 is a bit low to prevent getting shot once in the melee and given Thyron's on a medium base makes it a touch worse, Intrigue is borderline pointless, cos if the guns of the list are behind her, something's gone really wrong, and Seduction means handing her arse to your opponent. Parlay is her only solid ability that is going to be generally relevant, but it's still a bit too easy to facilitate a ranged assassination due to the lack of KD-immunity.
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matsif
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 54
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Post by matsif on Nov 2, 2018 13:38:04 GMT
My problem with FKG is that he is way worse than Madelyn. Sure, FKG is objectively better against melee warjacks and warbeasts. The problem with FKG is that he is not that difficult to kill in range or in melee. FKG is surprisingly survivable at range when you're literally surrounding him and Thyron with shield guard jacks. FKG is a small base. Thyron is a medium, the hydra you bring in the list for focus efficiency and range to stay back a ways is a large, and then you've got any other jacks at medium or large or even colossal bases to screen the FKG behind. Thyron's a tough target with range anyways due to blade shield making him DEF 17, so the only real risk is spells, which you can mitigate with certain choices if you're that worried about it. and if you're really worried about him, then you can make him blast immune and DEF 15 to range with an artificer, which fits into the list in question. madelyn forces you out of taking eiryss (any version, eiryss's single crossbow shot a turn does a ton of work in my experience) or eilish garrity (puppet master is nice) or lanyssa ryssyl (hunter's mark on top of onslaught from thyron does a lot of work). eilish actually covers a defensive hole (spell) and the offensive power of eiryss or lanyssa more than offsets parlay on madelyn. and eiryss or lanyssa can be free in theme as well, while you have to play for madelyn. storm rager on Thyron takes away CMAs and CRAs, which is the only way most unit infantry are going to be able to consistently hit you at DEF 17 (blade shield or guard dog). FKG having ARM 20 lets him stand up to a reasonable amount of nonsense to at least get Thyron into assassination range, and when you charge a P+S 15 weapon master with 4-5 focus and MAT 9 at a caster, it tends to do the job in my experience. and having parlay up means that Thyron can't take riposte attacks against infantry because they can't even target him, which is part of the benefits of having the FKG around in the first place: DEF 17 with no back strike bonuses lets you use a lot of riposte. madelyn doesn't stop jacks/beasts at all. at ARM 12, she dies incredibly easily to blast damage, which the FKG can generally withstand due to being ARM 20, making her more of a positioning problem. and since parlay does nothing to anything outside 7" of her, you now have to contend with any ranged infantry putting CRAs or other harsh ranged attacks on the easier to hit madelyn and then getting that damage transferred to Thyron via sucker, since the whole silly idea of the list is to get Thyron across the table to do work himself. you've got to play her reasonably close to put some buffer zone in front of Thyron to stop melee attacks via parlay, which means you're going to likely have to keep her within sucker range of Thyron to provide that buffer to make parlay useful. I can't see any reason to bring her unless all you fight is melee infantry spam, in which case ok she's probably better in that specific scenario. but I don't really see why she is way better than the FKG and worth spending 4 points on when I can instead bring a free eiryss, spend those points on eilish to get some protection against spells, or a free lanyssa ryssyl to get extended threat ranges on my already fast jacks that get relentless charge under onslaught during the approach.
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tanan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by tanan on Nov 4, 2018 12:42:59 GMT
So many comments! Don't worry, I'll answer them all. My problem with FKG is that he is way worse than Madelyn. Sure, FKG is objectively better against melee warjacks and warbeasts. The problem with FKG is that he is not that difficult to kill in range or in melee. I've probably questioned you on how to use Madelyn with Thyron before, but what's the rationale, ability use and placement methodology here? Madelyn ability use and placement depend heavily on the matchup and scenario. On a worst-case matchup (melee warjack or warbeast spam) she is just a DEF14 solo that contests a zone for turn. In a best-case matchup (melee infantry spam) she wins the game during list selection. Madelyn is... 1) ... extremely durable against shooting assuming that you have enough warrior models nearby. This makes her an excellent contesting and scoring model in certain scenarios and matchups. If enemy has powerful shooting attacks, sticking her near your warcaster* is usually a good idea. Remember that this ability is always active, even if Madelyn runs, is away from your warcaster or uses other abilities. The only way to bypass this ability is (scattering and boosted) blast damage, non-ranged attacks (e-leaps, magic attacks), push and placement abilities. 2) ... very good against powerful melee units like Champions, Chosen, Hellmaw, Sentinels or Exemplars. There isn't another 4-point model in the game that can indefinitely protect your warcaster or hold a zone against these models. The best part about Parlay is that it doesn't require any dice rolls to succeed and that nearby enemy melee units can't kill her regardless of hit rolls** or buffs. The effect is non-targeting and non-magic. 3) ... good at removing warrior models from zones and from defensive formations such as Shield wall and Defensive Line. Like Parlay, Seduction doesn't require a roll to succeed. The effect is targeting but non-magic, so it requires a LoS. 4) ... good at removing stealth from a warrior model units. While the threat range of the Intrigue is somewhat short (13"), it affects the entire unit. The effect is non-targeting and non-magic. * You actually want that enemy wastes model activations to hurt (but not kill) your warcaster. Obviously some warcasters are better at absorbing damage than others. Thyron is better than most RoS warcasters at absorbing damage, because he has a "safe" feat, no nukes (read: more camping) and ARM buff spell. ** Not completely true. High impact attacks rolls can hit Madelyn. Keep a healthy SPD+3"+0,01" distance between Madelyn and cavalry models.
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tanan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by tanan on Nov 11, 2018 15:19:02 GMT
As a faction of single wound models, and Sucker! being obligatory, the sort of model that you'd hold back to stick around to take the hit is terribly easy to kill, and usually required further on in the game. Like I stated in my previous post, this isn't true. Stick her near your warcaster and she can't be killed by ranged attacks. CMD 7 is a bit low to prevent getting shot once in the melee and given Thyron's on a medium base The main function of parlay is to prevent warrior model melee attacks against your warcaster. Parlay is her only solid ability that is going to be generally relevant, but it's still a bit too easy to facilitate a ranged assassination due to the lack of KD-immunity. Parlay prevents attacks even if your warcaster or Madelyn is knocked down. FKG is surprisingly survivable at range when you're literally surrounding him and Thyron with shield guard jacks You are investing a lot of points and board position to protect FKG. Madelyn doesn't require such protections. madelyn forces you out of taking eiryss (any version, eiryss's single crossbow shot a turn does a ton of work in my experience) or eilish garrity (puppet master is nice) or lanyssa ryssyl (hunter's mark on top of onslaught from thyron does a lot of work). You are somewhat mistaken. If you take Madelyn, you can take Lanyssa in Defenders and (any) Eiryss in Shadows. since parlay does nothing to anything outside 7" of her, you now have to contend with any ranged infantry putting CRAs or other harsh ranged attacks on the easier to hit madelyn and then getting that damage transferred to Thyron via sucker, since the whole silly idea of the list is to get Thyron across the table to do work himself. While it's possible for opponent to take advantage of Sucker!, I have never lost a warcaster to that ability. Generally speaking, it's rarely a good idea to shoot warcasters if you can't bypass power field. you've got to play her reasonably close to put some buffer zone in front of Thyron to stop melee attacks via parlay, which means you're going to likely have to keep her within sucker range of Thyron to provide that buffer to make parlay useful. Not true. Only if the enemy warrior model has 4" melee range, Madelyn is "forced" to Sucker! range.
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