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Post by jpgreat1 on Feb 21, 2018 17:36:51 GMT
CharistophYour embellishing quite a bit. Going from 1 theme list to another theme list doesn't cost you as near as much money as building a list or heavily modifying your list in 40k. Even Tweaking said lists, WMH is still cheaper. So lets recap: I showed you the numbers across different themes, I showed you the numbers of several youtube folks who probably take this game a lot more serious then you(and people you play with)do, We ran complete comparisons on entire factions. Keep in mind, the only thing we didn't do is compare all-in-one boxes. These youtubers/bloggers who I keep referencing play multiple style lists are probably doing it for the same reason why any competitive player or person who enjoys the game does and that is to get most out of it. The monetary value of doing that though is significantly more expensive doing it cause its a GW game versus doing it PP. I gave you numbers, you gave me anecdotes. While I can sit here and reference my friends who do play 40k and AOS who also told me they're experience is completely different then yours when building lists I didn't harp on that too much for obvious reasons. Again I gave you numbers, you gave me anecdotes.
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Post by jpgreat1 on Feb 21, 2018 17:46:56 GMT
galrohirThank you for checking your math but I would say you do want to have those codexes available which I was calculating when I did my math. That is something every GW store owner, youtuber, and player all state. So in turn 40k was more expensive. Thank you for proving that. Now go ahead if you want to go ahead and start tallying other lists then you start to see the bigger picture.
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Post by galrohir on Feb 21, 2018 18:55:02 GMT
galrohir Thank you for checking your math but I would say you do want to have those codexes available which I was calculating when I did my math. That is something every GW store owner, youtuber, and player all state. So in turn 40k was more expensive. Thank you for proving that. Now go ahead if you want to go ahead and start tallying other lists then you start to see the bigger picture. Why would I though? I've already demonstrated that you can enter a tournament in 40,000 for cheaper, model-wise. In the real world, it'd be even cheaper than I put up, because in the real world I could just hunt for a single Dark Eldar Warrior (saving myself 29.00) and Yvraine (saving myself even more money), and get the books in digital (which, if we want to buy them, saves me 10 more bucks). Not to mention that's not even the end of it. I can make a 2,000 point army out of five upgraded Doomhammers if I wanted to. That's 600 bucks, dead-tree Codex included. I can make it out of six Knights. That's 880 bucks, dead-tree codex included. Heck, if I was insane, I could make it out of a Warhound and a Doomhammer. That's 726 with the dead-tree codex/index, at current exchange rates. And I can take all of those to a tournament, if I want. I'll probably win absolutely nothing, but I can. And they're perfectly sericeable armies if all I want to do is play with huge tanks or big stompy robots at 2,000 points with my mates. Heck, I even get to form deatchments (except for the Warhound/Doomhammer pairing)! And they're all either less or marginally more than the Cryx pairing I posted. Cheaper overall, that is, because in a dollar per model basis they are abysmal. And we can do this dance all day, because I'm sure you can find cheaper Warmachine/Hordes list pairings. Which only proves there's a spectrum out there for tournament players in both games when it comes to price. At which point, you can only really compare individual model costs overall, and GW beats PP handily in that front (even before you consider that GW models have a ton more options than Warmahordes')
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Post by Charistoph on Feb 21, 2018 20:09:27 GMT
Charistoph Your embellishing quite a bit. Going from 1 theme list to another theme list doesn't cost you as near as much money as building a list or heavily modifying your list in 40k. Even Tweaking said lists, WMH is still cheaper. So lets recap: I showed you the numbers across different themes, I showed you the numbers of several youtube folks who probably take this game a lot more serious then you(and people you play with)do, We ran complete comparisons on entire factions. Keep in mind, the only thing we didn't do is compare all-in-one boxes. These youtubers/bloggers who I keep referencing play multiple style lists are probably doing it for the same reason why any competitive player or person who enjoys the game does and that is to get most out of it. The monetary value of doing that though is significantly more expensive doing it cause its a GW game versus doing it PP. I gave you numbers, you gave me anecdotes. While I can sit here and reference my friends who do play 40k and AOS who also told me they're experience is completely different then yours when building lists I didn't harp on that too much for obvious reasons. Again I gave you numbers, you gave me anecdotes. You gave me anecdotes about numbers. Yes, those you-tubers were anecdotes, don't take them as anything else. Ofttimes, changing a list in 40K is the same as changing your Warcaster list in theme. You change 1 unit, sometimes you change 2, sometimes you change a Character/Solo to refine it. But you can't tell me switching from a 'Jack-heavy Theme to an Infantry-heavy Theme wouldn't be expensive, and that's just with the normal armies and doesn't consider the additional purchases required for some of the changes in Mercenaries and Minions. Of course, the same could be said of 40K as well. Converting from an infantry-heavy list to a Vehicle-heavy list is also very expensive. Let's also consider this, just changing a Warcaster/Warlock can be a huge change in a PP army. With the exception of the Uniques, changing a Space Marine Captain to a Terminator or Primarus Captain doesn't change as much of the army, nor require as much of the army to change around him. It is this factor that one must consider during changes to army lists between 40K and WM/H. More to the point, both these games require different considerations in army-building, both in pure numbers as well as army construction. The only Core in a WM/H game is the battlegroup, everything else is only limited by points and their FA. In 40K, the Core has been 1 HQ and 2 Troop units (though that changed during 7th Edition) to which you can add far more Troop units than one can field in a single caster WM/H game. A 40K army's Core usually only changes a little bit when someone changes their army list, if at all. The only time you see someone starting their list from scratch is if they are completely changing their army, or professionals like yon you-tubers who earn a living from such transactions, not just because they want to try an adjustment to their list.
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Post by jpgreat1 on Feb 21, 2018 21:28:51 GMT
CharistophDo you know what anecdotes mean? An anecdote is an account regarded as unreliable or hearsay. I mean the post by Commander Gamza was completely and totally opposite of an anecdote. He posted his idea of good starter lists in 40k and had the actual price tag in the background. I didn't comment on how efficient the list was or how good it would be, just that it was a starter list that wasn't even complete. He also within that same video talked about how he would complete the list which we can take the time to look up. He did multiple factions again similar price tag. If he would have shown a piece of paper of how he would build a list and say "hey at my local store I can find this model for this much and you can at your store" that would be an anecdote dude. Again I showed you numbers, you talk in anecdotes. So much so that the rest of your response is not worth responding to because clearly you didn't understand why I was using those particular youtubers & videos in the first place.
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Post by jpgreat1 on Feb 21, 2018 21:51:18 GMT
galrohir Its not a dance. I mean you said so yourself we can change certain things and it can become cheaper. And as I said prior this isn't taking into account discounts that you may get at a local store or online buyer from ebay. I'm also taken into account on one post the currency different between Pounds and Dollars. However, definitely even with your math we proved 40k is more expensive. Sure a guy can tweak his list which isn't that bad but a guy can change the type of list he is going for (you mention he is elite but i know you can go gunline, swarm/spam, alpha strike, etc) or go with a different faction. So when you start making those changes it becomes costly. If you then deny that and say look at it in this context like what has happened in this thread (to look at entire collections when tournament ready lists showed WMH cheaper, then look at lower cost games when that didn't work, then hurdle towards building your first list and meta change, etc) thats classic goal post moving.
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Post by Charistoph on Feb 21, 2018 23:06:14 GMT
Charistoph Do you know what anecdotes mean? An anecdote is an account regarded as unreliable or hearsay. I mean the post by Commander Gamza was completely and totally opposite of an anecdote. He posted his idea of good starter lists in 40k and had the actual price tag in the background. I didn't comment on how efficient the list was or how good it would be, just that it was a starter list that wasn't even complete. He also within that same video talked about how he would complete the list which we can take the time to look up. He did multiple factions again similar price tag. If he would have shown a piece of paper of how he would build a list and say "hey at my local store I can find this model for this much and you can at your store" that would be an anecdote dude. Again I showed you numbers, you talk in anecdotes. So much so that the rest of your response is not worth responding to because clearly you didn't understand why I was using those particular youtubers & videos in the first place. If the person is an unknown (which this person is to me, as much as you are to me and I am to you), then their accounting is unreliable. Your information is just hearsay to me. Oh, I understand why you were using those particular youtubers, you have no personal experience regarding the situation, and it shows by relying on other people to provide you data. I have experience from both sides of the street on this because I have had dogs in both fights. I have collected multiple armies in both formats. I have talked with players who frequent LVO who talk about adjusting their lists. When building a Space Marine list, a lot will depend on the <Chapter> you choose. You mentioned Ultramarines, while I collected Black Templars, Tau, Necrons, and Chaos Marines. You mentioned Cygnar, while I have done some collecting of the Protectorate, Trollbloods, Sellsword Mercenaries, and Skorne. When I buy a unit for WarmaHordes, if I'm lucky, it's $35 for a unit the size of Beast Handlers, and $55 for a unit like Steelheads (outside of super sales and flea markets). That's an average pricing right there. Of course, that doesn't include support solos for those Steelheads or the Warbeasts that the Handlers will control, either, or some of the more specialized units costing upwards toward $65. Those prices haven't changed all that much in the last 10 years (Steelheads you bought 6 for $35, but then paid 2x$13 to fill from the blister). Tactical & Grey Hunter Squads used to cost $35, and now cost $40. Now, moving on from there, I will probably only need 3 of those Steelhead boxes (2 for Halberdiers, 1 for Riflemen) at most. For my Black Templars, I ran 2 Tactical Crusader Squads for heavy fire support, and 2 Melee Crusader Squads (built from a Grey Hunter box, a Tactical Squad box, and leftovers from my Chaos Marine kits) which included 5 Scout models each. My Chaos Marine Troops were 3 Squads of Chaos Marines and 1 Thousand Sons (back in the 4th Edition "Blue Period" codex). That was the core of my army. Only the Elites and Heavy Support were likely to change from there if anything was going to be added. But if I wanted to go from 4* to Kingmaker's, I should get at least two boxes of Trenchers to form my new Theme core, plus any possible solos to support them. Heaven forbid I go Dwarves or Cephalyx as I literally have to build those battlegroups from scratch. Obviously, if I go between Irregulars and Kingmaker's or Laellese, my battlegroups will be able to stay fine, but my solos and units will largely need new purchases to properly fill them out. On a per model basis, GW's cheaper. Of course, GW is mass producing plastics, which brings down the price, considerably, while PP's price didn't change much when the Steelheads went to their new non-metal format. PP even has the advantage for me, as the product doesn't cross national borders or an ocean to reach me like it does for GW. But, I can still buy GW products more easily than PP. Heck, I even get a better return on investment from GW products, as I was able to resell everything but the melee Crusader Squads by the next local store flea market. I have Skorne and Mercenary models I haven't sold at any of them, and some were sitting around longer than those Crusader Squads. But even as cheap as GW models are, more are generally required over all, but they aren't as much of a lynchpin to an army's play as much such units are in WarmaHordes. This is simply because of the SIZE of the armies in question. The average two-list Steamroller won't compare to the average 40K tournament army in size of models brought. Once you try doing that, you'll see just how different these cases really are.
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Post by jpgreat1 on Feb 22, 2018 0:58:09 GMT
CharistophSo just so that we are clear. You don't understand the term anecdote. Clearly, you don't based on your response. I'm not trying to make fun of you because I know how this sounds but your response shows you don't understand the word. Maybe we have a language barrier problem? Remember, while what he was suggesting what to build was his opinion. The pricing of those models wasn't made up data or unreliable source but based upon the GW site itself. He also did one for many other factions. Keep in mind so did the other folks I listed which you can watch. Sure, these guys may get money for playing and showcasing videos but what they paid for these models doesn't change. Also, it is irrelevant to explain the price of 1 individual model or unit/squad when in compared to what it takes to play the game just like it is irrelevant if you know them or not or if I know you or not. It is also irrelevant on what you paid for it or if you can sell it or not. What is relevant is the fact that we compared what it takes to play tournament ready lists which Warmachine was cheaper. I choose 3 to 4 expensive Warmachine lists paired them up in which still was cheaper then the 40k one. It was also brought up how expensive Keith's lists was which it is pretty penny but after making sure math was correct it turns out it still wasn't as expensive as the LVO 40k list. I am told well, you got to look at whole collections which is fine because very rarely a person in this hobby will be happy with just 1 list but as it turns out 40k was still a lot more expensive. You tell me when someone does list tweaks which price largely depends on what you are tweaking but even then if you are changing 1 or 2 models you do the same for warmachine it ended up being cheaper. You tell me the hurdle is the first list but after that maintaining it is cheaper but then I refer you back to the other point that was made (maybe not by you but others) that you just don't collect 1 list and be content with that which concludes 40k is more expensive. You keep changing the criteria telling me just like how you added in this recent post your re-sale value, that you owned multiple factions, and how much money you paid. That is moving the goal post. I mean I can do the same and talk about single list events but I don't know how often those are relevent in your meta.
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Post by Charistoph on Feb 22, 2018 1:58:42 GMT
Charistoph So just so that we are clear. You don't understand the term anecdote. Clearly, you don't based on your response. I'm not trying to make fun of you because I know how this sounds but your response shows you don't understand the word. Maybe we have a language barrier problem? Remember, while what he was suggesting what to build was his opinion. The pricing of those models wasn't made up data or unreliable source but based upon the GW site itself. He also did one for many other factions. Keep in mind so did the other folks I listed which you can watch. Sure, these guys may get money for playing and showcasing videos but what they paid for these models doesn't change. Also, it is irrelevant to explain the price of 1 individual model or unit/squad when in compared to what it takes to play the game just like it is irrelevant if you know them or not or if I know you or not. It is also irrelevant on what you paid for it or if you can sell it or not. What is relevant is the fact that we compared what it takes to play tournament ready lists which Warmachine was cheaper. I choose 3 to 4 expensive Warmachine lists paired them up in which still was cheaper then the 40k one. It was also brought up how expensive Keith's lists was which it is pretty penny but after making sure math was correct it turns out it still wasn't as expensive as the LVO 40k list. I am told well, you got to look at whole collections which is fine because very rarely a person in this hobby will be happy with just 1 list but as it turns out 40k was still a lot more expensive. You tell me when someone does list tweaks which price largely depends on what you are tweaking but even then if you are changing 1 or 2 models you do the same for warmachine it ended up being cheaper. You tell me the hurdle is the first list but after that maintaining it is cheaper but then I refer you back to the other point that was made (maybe not by you but others) that you just don't collect 1 list and be content with that which concludes 40k is more expensive. You keep changing the criteria telling me just like how you added in this recent post your re-sale value, that you owned multiple factions, and how much money you paid. That is moving the goal post. I mean I can do the same and talk about single list events but I don't know how often those are relevent in your meta. No, I am understanding the term just fine, I just don't know the person you referring to, and so your referencing him is just an anecdote to me. As far as I know, this guy is a total putz at the game, but just presents real well. This becomes even more marked because you don't seem to understand much about building a 40K list yourself, so you don't know who is a putz and who is great. In most cases, 40K players will seek to collect one list. Sometimes it will have "specialists" which they can trade in and out, but it is still just the one list. WarmaHordes cannot work as a one list format as well. The armies are just too small to have good counters, not to mention few units are available as universal question/answers that one can pack in to 40K. Not to mention, the variety in adding options around for the game is more desirable in WM/H because of the impact to the level of the game it has. Yes, it is not uncommon for some 40K players to have several armies, but then, I could easily say the same for WM/H. Also keep in mind, not everyone is looking to have a tournament list in the first place, so only considering tournament lists is short-sighted and only attempting to keep the goal posts to which you feel comfortable kicking at. This is one reason I also asked what you consider a "complete collection", which you never specified, but just hinted at as being "1 of everything in a faction", even though that is not always the best qualification. So comparing what a professional may do as the standard to everything is a bit disingenuous as establishing that as the standard for everyone.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Feb 23, 2018 0:14:31 GMT
Charistoph Do you know what anecdotes mean? An anecdote is an account regarded as unreliable or hearsay. I mean the post by Commander Gamza was completely and totally opposite of an anecdote. He posted his idea of good starter lists in 40k and had the actual price tag in the background. I didn't comment on how efficient the list was or how good it would be, just that it was a starter list that wasn't even complete. He also within that same video talked about how he would complete the list which we can take the time to look up. He did multiple factions again similar price tag. If he would have shown a piece of paper of how he would build a list and say "hey at my local store I can find this model for this much and you can at your store" that would be an anecdote dude. Again I showed you numbers, you talk in anecdotes. So much so that the rest of your response is not worth responding to because clearly you didn't understand why I was using those particular youtubers & videos in the first place. I see that google provides the second definition of anecdote as "an account that is regarded as unreliable or hearsay", but that's not really accurate. Anecdotal evidence can be very reliable, but it is often hearsay (in that, the person offering the anecdote is not the person who personally experienced it). The limitation of anecdotal evidence is primarily in its myopia. It is one person's experience, and it is dangerous to extrapolate from a single (or even a few) data points. That said, when an individual says "hey guys, this thing happened to me," that is an anecdote. Using that person's experience or story as evidence in an argument is citing anecdotal evidence, regardless of the veracity of his anecdote.
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Post by W0lfBane on Feb 23, 2018 2:11:30 GMT
So this thread about bad sportsmanship has turned into an argument about the definition of anecdote.
Solid show
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on Feb 25, 2018 16:08:37 GMT
So this thread about bad sportsmanship has turned into an argument about the definition of anecdote. Solid show It was doomed from the start. You can see it in the first few replies where people say "this is why our game is better the rules are clearer" when the 40k rules about deep striking units are absolutly crystal. You can't expect the fans of a game who rigidly stick to the rules in order to be competitive to understand why the initial topic of a thread is an issue. Just imagine the guy said "I forgot to allocate" and its the first turn of the first round of a tournament and had moved a few models already. Its that level of brainfart
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Post by jpgreat1 on Feb 26, 2018 0:51:38 GMT
Charistoph If you understand it then your responses don't seem to indicate so. You seem to be changing the criteria and then having me look at irrelevant data. Until you can provide actual data points there's nothing further to be said. Warmachine/hordes is a cheaper game than 40k. As far as the thread, I agree the rules about how to deep strike are very clear but its how the response to someone not following them is why I made the thread. I've seen plenty of folks mess up allocation rules in conventions but yet never seen a similar reaction to how this played out. As I said originally its very confusing and silly for what they did.
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Post by Charistoph on Feb 26, 2018 7:13:43 GMT
Charistoph If you understand it then your responses don't seem to indicate so. You seem to be changing the criteria and then having me look at irrelevant data. Until you can provide actual data points there's nothing further to be said. Warmachine/hordes is a cheaper game than 40k. Don't blame me for your unappreciation for multiple definitions. To me, you are relying far too much on one person's take on it, and he has very good reasons for applying it in his way that you may not understand. Hence, your reliance on it is anecdotal evidence at best. You never adequately supplied what you think a proper collection of an army is, but relied on what someone else said or just tried to buy one of everything. One box of everything can work in WM/H, but it won't work in 40K. Even then, it is often advisable to get the full FA of every thing you are going to field in WM/H. In 40K, it's usually 2-4, but you can usually field up to 6 in a Detachment (but you can have numerous Detachments). To set up a list in 40K is very expensive. To set up a list in WM/H is also rather expensive. Most people who establish their list in 40K, may continue to collect for collection's sake and never use the models they purchase in a game. With WM/H, and the way CID is working, that goes the other way around. What doesn't work one month, may becomes next month's cheese. Themes often turn things on their head, with many Themes being only marginally compatible with other Theme's collections at best (particularly noticeable in Skorne and Mercenaries). I have not changed the criteria, I just never accepted yours to begin with, much like you have not accepted mine. I have repeatedly stated up to this point that the scale of the games and their army building criteria are so different, that comparisons really are not appropriate. Try building a 1000 point 40K list. That's a bit closer to the average model count you will see in a 75 or 100 pt WM/H game. What do your numbers crunch to then? One of your criteria seems to be focused only on the competitive. I have gotten 1000 & 1500 point games in 40K before, I have a hard time getting even a Battlebox game in WM/H because of the focus on Steamroller and I didn't have a 75 point collection. When you cut your 40K list in half, how does it compare to the cost of your 75 point list? The main reason I dropped 40K is because I didn't feel like spending an hour to set up a game just to clear up rule confusion. I didn't stick with WM/H for the cost, that's for sure.
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Post by macdaddy on Feb 26, 2018 20:29:05 GMT
It was doomed from the start. You can see it in the first few replies where people say "this is why our game is better the rules are clearer" when the 40k rules about deep striking units are absolutly crystal. You can't expect the fans of a game who rigidly stick to the rules in order to be competitive to understand why the initial topic of a thread is an issue. Just imagine the guy said "I forgot to allocate" and its the first turn of the first round of a tournament and had moved a few models already. Its that level of brainfart Its actually more like "forgot to allocate then announced to activate a Model." level of brainfart/gotcha. Not even the moved models level. He literally just put a single deep strike guy on the table and was told "OH NOES YOU DON'T GETS A MOVEMENT PHASE" GW rules are bad, unbalanced in a lot of ways, and the game itself is just...bleh. I wandered into a local tourney the other day while looking for some paint and it was mostly guard players camping in a corner of the board obliterating everyone else. And lists with 3-4 Superheavies. Just gross on every level.
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