wishing
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by wishing on Feb 20, 2018 13:46:02 GMT
If we went by the flawed logic of the "playable army cost", PP could easily say that the average size of a tournament army is now 20% of the current one, raise the price of every model 5 times and still end up with reasonably priced toy soldiers in your eyes. It just doesn't work like that. If you bought several bags of chips for your party and they cost 5$/bag and some other person bought -similar or better in quality - chips that were 2$/bag you wouldn't say that your chips are cheaper just because the other guy wants to throw a much bigger party and therefore buys more bags. If you did you'd be just fooling yourself to justify the fact that you've just paid way too much for the damned chips... I agree with you, but there is no point in engaging in this argument. The guy you are replying to isn't saying that one Iron Fang is cheaper than one Termagant. He is saying that WM "the game" is a cheaper game than 40k "the game", as I read it. Since what "the game" is, exactly, is a subjective evaluation, you cannot state which one is more expensive. So you are correct that one GW model is cheaper than one WM model of similar size. No question. But that isn't what matters to a lot of people. And you cannot control what matters to people. So just let them care about what they want...
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on Feb 20, 2018 15:07:22 GMT
If we went by the flawed logic of the "playable army cost", PP could easily say that the average size of a tournament army is now 20% of the current one, raise the price of every model 5 times and still end up with reasonably priced toy soldiers in your eyes. It just doesn't work like that. If you bought several bags of chips for your party and they cost 5$/bag and some other person bought -similar or better in quality - chips that were 2$/bag you wouldn't say that your chips are cheaper just because the other guy wants to throw a much bigger party and therefore buys more bags. If you did you'd be just fooling yourself to justify the fact that you've just paid way too much for the damned chips... I agree with you, but there is no point in engaging in this argument. The guy you are replying to isn't saying that one Iron Fang is cheaper than one Termagant. He is saying that WM "the game" is a cheaper game than 40k "the game", as I read it. Since what "the game" is, exactly, is a subjective evaluation, you cannot state which one is more expensive. So you are correct that one GW model is cheaper than one WM model of similar size. No question. But that isn't what matters to a lot of people. And you cannot control what matters to people. So just let them care about what they want... Honestly I wouldn't usually care but I feel like the weird sense of superiority that WM/H players have over 40k is a problem in the WM/H community. Failing to recognise problems in the game such as the increasing expense of models by saying "well that other company is worse" will result in a dying community because PP will only listen to the positive feedback (which we know is all they want after they gutted the forums and how they run the CID forums). If you keep fighting PPs corner and letting them think €60 for a 12 man unit is acceptable they'll keep doing it amd it'll keep turning people away.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Feb 20, 2018 16:35:58 GMT
I agree with you, but there is no point in engaging in this argument. The guy you are replying to isn't saying that one Iron Fang is cheaper than one Termagant. He is saying that WM "the game" is a cheaper game than 40k "the game", as I read it. Since what "the game" is, exactly, is a subjective evaluation, you cannot state which one is more expensive. So you are correct that one GW model is cheaper than one WM model of similar size. No question. But that isn't what matters to a lot of people. And you cannot control what matters to people. So just let them care about what they want... While true, comparing the "complete gaming experience" makes PP look even worse, to be honest. Let's compare the price of a SINGLE character warjack, for example the Eye of Truth, with... an expensive, high-production-value boardgame, like Blood Rage. A single warjack. A little toy robot. Nothing else, no accessories, no fancy options. vs A complete game with 49 (!!!!!) pretty good quality miniatures, including 4 big monsters. The gaming board, cards, tokens, everything... Doesn't really look like it's lacking much, quality-wise Hmm, Blood Rage is slightly more expensive than EoT. Slightly. 49 nice models and stuff. Ok, let's choose something less absurd than EoT, and also less niche/special, like starter boxes. Two of them let 2 players have a game (Blood Rage is up to 4 players). 8 models in total and some basic components. Now we've paid more than we would for Blood Rage. Which has how many models, again ? Yeah, comparing the price of a "complete gaming experience with quality miniatures" doesn't do PP any favours either...
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Post by jpgreat1 on Feb 20, 2018 16:44:54 GMT
The thing is the % of the playable army is entirely subjective, and - shockingly! - points values are set by the same company that is trying to sell you models. A company easily can (and does!) abuse players who share your POV to set exorbitant prices for their models just because they constitute a certain amount of points they themselves made up! If we went by the flawed logic of the "playable army cost", PP could easily say that the average size of a tournament army is now 20% of the current one, raise the price of every model 5 times and still end up with reasonably priced toy soldiers in your eyes. It just doesn't work like that. Are you guys really moving the goal post? You guys state false comments and when it gets right down to it. 1 Divide and conquer tournament ready lists is cheaper by at least 100 bucks then 1 40k army list. Then I'm told well you got to look at whole collections. Okay, I know people who bought entire armies in 40k & AOS say they spend thousands and even when I look at the GW site myself, I stopped counting once the number hit over 3k. I'm on Page 5 for buying ultra marines skipping over all in one box sets, dice/doodads, and only added 1 codex when crunching the numbers I'm at 3,220.25 and still got 5 more pages to go. Doing the same thing for Cygnar (choosing the more expensive variants,skipping all in ones, choosing warroom app versus book, etc) I'm at 2698.99. I mean are you guys seriously saying 3200 < 2700? Okay, lets look at the anticipated goal post move (well if you look at playable models and deals), my local hobby distributor has a deal were you can buy tournament ready armies in miniature games. 40k list that won LVO is 400, Haley3 gravedigger list is 225. 40k extras include a dice bag with 3 dice and a tape measurer. WMH includes 3 dice, measuring sticks, and 2 sets of small, medium, and large bases. What other metric are you guys going to compare? Just because you want to compare the Wild Riders or Dark Riders [or insert cav of choice] and say oh look its 45 bucks cheaper then the comparable cavalry in warmachine. Thats fine but realistically speaking you aren't just bringing the bare minimum. I just asked a buddy of mine who also happens to run a GW store on average when you bring cavalry how many? He explained to me several scenarios but each of them ended costing more then the PP counter part. So even the comment of Charistoph comment of is just wrong. Again, GW is a lot more expensive then PP I've crunched the list based numbers for you, looked at possible deals for you, as well as added up entire collections. GW lost every metric.
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Post by jpgreat1 on Feb 20, 2018 16:57:25 GMT
And now reading the last post before this. You guys will talk about quality of models...
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Post by Charistoph on Feb 20, 2018 17:46:30 GMT
So even the comment of Charistoph comment of is just wrong. Again, GW is a lot more expensive then PP I've crunched the list based numbers for you, looked at possible deals for you, as well as added up entire collections. GW lost every metric. Hmm, it doesn't seem to lose at every metric at all. On a per model basis (for the same size), GW wins most of the time. The hard part is that you aren't dealing with a per model basis most of the time. Most GW units require a minimum of 2 boxes to complete (Tacticals being a rare full model set, even if missing Weapon options). PP units sometimes come complete in a box, but often-times do not. You have the box, plus at least one blister (if not two to six) in far too many cases (currently). Still, one does not need to have two of a unit in a WarmaHordes game (though, it is useful), much less six. The scale of game favors PP generally. Compare the number of models that you bring in one 75 pt Steamroller list versus a non-Primarus Space Marine 1850-2000 point list. The numbers are vastly different. This is why GW tends to be much harder to get in to, but once complete, the need for collecting is minimal. The individual model trends to be cheaper, but GW games generally required much much more of them. Now, figure how much it would cost to run the same number of PP models in a GW game, and you'd be looking at including 2-3 Warcasters/Warlocks, easily, just as GW games include at least 2-3 Heroes/HQs (generally). The price point for PP goes up substantially. Try it. If one was looking at doing a Kill Team game versus a CoI game, GW tends to win out (largely depends on factions). Kill Team versus Battlebox, PP tends to win out. There are far to many factors involved to be 100% sure on every metric, because of how the different each of the factions work from both companies.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Feb 20, 2018 17:55:19 GMT
I agree, no wonder PP may feel competitive when we don't compare the number of actual models taking part in a game. To get a good comparison we shouldn't compare a rather massive wh40k army with a small skirmish force from WM&H. Or if we do, we should easily notice which option gives us (much) more toys to paint and play with for similar amount of money.
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Post by jpgreat1 on Feb 20, 2018 18:10:09 GMT
So even the comment of Charistoph comment of is just wrong. Again, GW is a lot more expensive then PP I've crunched the list based numbers for you, looked at possible deals for you, as well as added up entire collections. GW lost every metric. Hmm, it doesn't seem to lose at every metric at all. On a per model basis (for the same size), GW wins most of the time. The hard part is that you aren't dealing with a per model basis most of the time. Most GW units require a minimum of 2 boxes to complete (Tacticals being a rare full model set, even if missing Weapon options). PP units sometimes come complete in a box, but often-times do not. You have the box, plus at least one blister (if not two to six) in far too many cases (currently). Still, one does not need to have two of a unit in a WarmaHordes game (though, it is useful), much less six. The scale of game favors PP generally. Compare the number of models that you bring in one 75 pt Steamroller list versus a non-Primarus Space Marine 1850-2000 point list. The numbers are vastly different. This is why GW tends to be much harder to get in to, but once complete, the need for collecting is minimal. The individual model trends to be cheaper, but GW games generally required much much more of them. Now, figure how much it would cost to run the same number of PP models in a GW game, and you'd be looking at including 2-3 Warcasters/Warlocks, easily, just as GW games include at least 2-3 Heroes/HQs (generally). The price point for PP goes up substantially. Try it. If one was looking at doing a Kill Team game versus a CoI game, GW tends to win out (largely depends on factions). Kill Team versus Battlebox, PP tends to win out. There are far to many factors involved to be 100% sure on every metric, because of how the different each of the factions work from both companies. I did compare multiple lists with multiple casters PP was still cheaper. I did compare multiple bloggers and types of Ultra marine armies built PP was still cheaper. I did compare whole collections PP was still cheaper.
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Post by Charistoph on Feb 20, 2018 20:42:13 GMT
I did compare multiple lists with multiple casters PP was still cheaper. I did compare multiple bloggers and types of Ultra marine armies built PP was still cheaper. I did compare whole collections PP was still cheaper. How are you defining "whole collections"? Seriously, with Apocalypse, only the Uniques are limited in 40K, while in WarmaHordes, 'Jacks, 'Beasts, and Sea Dogs are unlimited. What standards of bloggers are you using? How often do they play? Are they regular attendants at conference tournaments, and do you see their names on the lists? Again, if you are comparing a tournament list to tournament list, PP generally comes out cheaper because you are dealing with fewer models and kits over all. BUT, if you try to match model to model, PP will lose, because PP's models cost more for the same size of model. The reason for this is the manufacturing process and materials. Not to mention if we are looking at tournament lists, which types of tournaments? Are you factoring Who's the Boss, King of the Mountain, Kill Team, or Company of Iron? There are too many army building factors involved, but generally, it is more expensive to get START 40K, then PP. It is more expensive to do certain expansions of lists with PP (not all units come with a full unit, CA or WAs in them, yet), then with 40K. Of course, it can easily be said in the reverse, depending on the faction (and I was VERY clear on that point). If you looked to do an Militarum Conscript horde army, it gets REALLY expensive REALLY quick because each model is a pittance in point cost. Try doing a Pirate list that equals the same amount of models for PP, and then tell me PP still is cheaper.
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Post by jpgreat1 on Feb 20, 2018 21:25:31 GMT
Charistoph I think we already established this part earlier in the discussion but if you want me to repeat it. To be tournament ready in 40k you need 1 list of 2000 points. Using Commander Gamza's youtube video for Ultra Marines his price tag was a substantial amount. If you think, maybe Ultramarines aren't a good way to base price then hes done one with Imperial Guard, Necrons, Chaos, and Eldar. All of them were similarly priced. Don't care for that youtuber, the original guy in the first post in this thread also done videos for building competitive 40k lists. I can also link Glacier Geek, Miniwargaming, & OMS whom all have done similar videos. For Cygnar I choose my more expensive 2 lists Nemo3 HM/Stryker1 SD. Even trollbloods (a faction that is known for being really expensive) was still cheaper. Then I am told look at the entire collection you could get. Okay, I went on the GW site clicked on the Ultra Marines check mark and unchecked all-in-one boxes, took the price tag of the main codex, took out Apocalypse, and went to adding. I stopped at page 5 when I hit 3000 dollars. I still had 5 more pages to go. So in a way you can state I was looking to total every single unit, tank, walker/dreadnaught, artillery piece, and solo that was available to Ultra Marines. Cygnar based off the PP page was 2700 bucks, again I did similar things as far as paying for Warroom app (all faction decks), did not count all-in-one boxes, as well as choose more expensive variants when 2 were presented. Again PP was cheaper I've also asked several hobbyists as well as store owners near me how much GW was in comparison to PP. All of them universally stated GW was way more of an expensive game even with some of the discounts you could get. You want to compare 1 set of models versus another set and say "oh look cav is cheaper in GW games" which is true but again are you going to buy the bare minimum? Again after discussing this with people who run GW stores that is never the case. You are buying battalions worth. So that point, isn't really a good point. You want to continue to compare now bring up COI and Kill team? I mean it seems that you are just moving goal posts to fit the narrative but even then as you pointed out there are probably tons of outliers there.
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Post by Charistoph on Feb 21, 2018 6:18:17 GMT
So, "whole collection" was one of everything? Why not 6 of every Troop and 3 of every Heavy Support, Fast Attack, Elite, and HQ (aside from Uniques)? Why not the 1 'Caster FA for all of a PP Faction? That is a far more practical demonstration of a "whole collection".
Of course, Space Marines have far more units available in their lexicon then two of any other codices combined, too (not including the Angels and Wolves). Here's a thought, see if you can find a Sisters of Battle list and price that one out, then try a pure Daemons or Tau collection, it should be interesting when comparing your results.
I do bring up CoI and Kill Team because the point I was mainly trying to make was about the per model cost, which has been one of the goal posts I have repeatedly stated. It may not be a goal post you have wanted to face or what others have stated, but it is one of them.
As I have said, army creation is completely different between the two systems, so true comparison is difficult. Part of this is because the focus of the two games are so dissimilar. They don't even have the same goal posts in the first place, as one is an army game and the other is more of a skirmish/grand skirmish game.
If you try to set the same goal posts between the two games, such as model count, it throws things way off. For an example, Why would you take 10 Warcasters and Solos, 6 units of your chaff, 6 units of your more specialized infantry, 3 units of Cavalry, a Colossal, and 5 Battle Engines?
Most times when I see people changing their lists in 40K, locally, they are not swapping out that much. It is usually an Elite unit here for a Heavy Support there (or similar). When I see someone swapping Themes (and sometimes even 'Casters/'Locks) here, the amount of models that can be used in both is usually countable on two hands, if not one. Warmachine tends to be a little better, as the 'Jacks don't fill out a spell list for a 'Caster like the Warbeasts do for the Warlocks (though, there are some exceptions). And this is where I point out that 40K tends to be less painful over all. It's a royally expensive to get that first 2000 point GW list. It's usually not cheap to get that good 75 + Battlegroup point PP list, either, and if you want to Steamroller, its closer to 150 points + Battlegroup.
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Post by galrohir on Feb 21, 2018 14:12:07 GMT
But even with comparisons being hard, we can use tournament lists as a point of comparison: Since I know almost nothing about Warmachine/Hordes tourneys I just went to Discount Games and used the LVO Masters Champ, Keith Christianson. If you don't like it, tough cookie, you can pick another one. I picked him 'cus I have the LVO 40k list so.... His two lists combined come out at 943.72 dollars. He has a total of 53 models (22 Small Bases, 10 Medium Bases, 20 Large Bases, 1 Huge Base). The 40k list that won the LVO (which you can find here: www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/01/40k-lvo-top-lists-and-finals.html )comes out at 831.50 dollars (using US prices) and has 77 total models (66 small bases, 2 Wave Serpents and 9 Shining Spears, which use flying bases and I'm not sure how big they are). Now, the comparison probably isn't entirely fair given that the 40k list is an "Elite" list with very few models. (you can check out the second LVO list int he link for a more horde-y list, but I'm not pricing that because the guy used a mix of Forge World models and normal models and I frankly don't want to spend the time. It's probably super expensive though.), but even with that being said here you have a 40k tournament list that is not only 111.50 dollars cheaper but also has 24 more models. Which in the end just demonstrates.......well nothing, basically, except tournament 40k can be cheaper than tournament Warmachine, I suppose. And that I got time to waste, that too.
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Post by jpgreat1 on Feb 21, 2018 15:21:26 GMT
galrohir I get 865 bucks. Were are you getting the extra 90? I even tried to do exclusive models and the more expensive variants and I rounded up to the nearest dollar. Did you casually add in something extra? Perhaps war-room? And I also got 40k LVO list to be more expensive? What corners are you cutting? Did you leave out the codex? Maybe an elite? Charistoph You just say people change a few models and its overall cheaper but the same can be said about warmachine. I mean I pointed out how cheap the change would be swapping S1 SD list to H2 SD. Even going from S1 SD to N3 HD wasn't a great expensive change in comparison. Also as I pointed theres a difference between tweaking and changing major parts of your list. But also I want to point out every blogger/youtuber states when you want to create a new list you pretty much start from square 1 with very little cross over. For example Glacier Geek plays Genestealer Cults which has some cross over with Tryanids (which he also plays). Its almost a 600 dollar separate charge each for his two lists. (total would be near 900 if not more because he has more of a collection but I'm going off what was on the video plus crossover)which if we look at Keith's list which is a very expensive list cause of the slayer spam 40k is still more expensive.
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Post by Charistoph on Feb 21, 2018 16:46:42 GMT
Charistoph You just say people change a few models and its overall cheaper but the same can be said about warmachine. I mean I pointed out how cheap the change would be swapping S1 SD list to H2 SD. Even going from S1 SD to N3 HD wasn't a great expensive change in comparison. Also as I pointed theres a difference between tweaking and changing major parts of your list. But also I want to point out every blogger/youtuber states when you want to create a new list you pretty much start from square 1 with very little cross over. For example Glacier Geek plays Genestealer Cults which has some cross over with Tryanids (which he also plays). Its almost a 600 dollar separate charge each for his two lists. (total would be near 900 if not more because he has more of a collection but I'm going off what was on the video plus crossover)which if we look at Keith's list which is a very expensive list cause of the slayer spam 40k is still more expensive. And did they state WHY they start over from scratch? I'm going from real life experience from people who play 40K. In most cases, when they change their lists, they are just trying something new for their army, and so add in the new and drop what is superfluous out of there. In WarmaHordes, changing a list in Theme usually isn't so bad, but once you start venturing out of theme, it really adds up. In many ways, changing Theme is almost as bad as switching Factions. Switching from Genestealer Cult to Tyranids is tantamount to switching from Cephalyx to Cryx. Sure, there's some cross over models to work with, but they are separate factions overall with different requirements, and one is (at best) only a small part of the other. And working with Cephalyx in Cryx is usually a temporary measure, much like using Steelhead Riflemen would be in Cygnar. Sure, you CAN use them early on, but that may not be the end goal for their use. Whole Battlegroups have to be changed out, and that's not a pretty penny unless you stick to just the Battlebox. The focus of the games and their method of army creation are really just too different to try and compare properly. One may as well try to compare it with Bolt Action or Kingdom Death. Value is where YOU put it. Some people will value GW games more, while some will value PP games more. Money well spent is when you have a good game.
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Post by galrohir on Feb 21, 2018 17:11:22 GMT
galrohir I get 865 bucks. Were are you getting the extra 90? I even tried to do exclusive models and the more expensive variants and I rounded up to the nearest dollar. Did you casually add in something extra? Perhaps war-room? And I also got 40k LVO list to be more expensive? What corners are you cutting? Did you leave out the codex? Maybe an elite? Charistoph You just say people change a few models and its overall cheaper but the same can be said about warmachine. I mean I pointed out how cheap the change would be swapping S1 SD list to H2 SD. Even going from S1 SD to N3 HD wasn't a great expensive change in comparison. Also as I pointed theres a difference between tweaking and changing major parts of your list. But also I want to point out every blogger/youtuber states when you want to create a new list you pretty much start from square 1 with very little cross over. For example Glacier Geek plays Genestealer Cults which has some cross over with Tryanids (which he also plays). Its almost a 600 dollar separate charge each for his two lists. (total would be near 900 if not more because he has more of a collection but I'm going off what was on the video plus crossover)which if we look at Keith's list which is a very expensive list cause of the slayer spam 40k is still more expensive. Yeah I made a mistake and counted some Cryx units twice without realising. I was tired, my apologies. Here's the math anyway, prices taken from PP webstore and GW webstore (US): WarmachineAsphy 3 and Vociferon: 32.99 Skarre 1: 11.99 Nightwretches: 2 Blisters at 19.99 each (he has 3 on the list but we need 2 blisters for that) Slayers: 9 at 37.99 each Stalkers: 2 at 11.99 each Desecrator: 34.99 Tartarus: 16.99 Machine Wraith: 13.99 Skarlock Thrall: 9.99 Scrap Thralls: 10.99 Ironmongers: 31.99 Bane Riders: 2 at 64.99 each Bane Warriors: 49.99 Bane Warrior Officer and Std: 27.99 Wraith Engine: 84.99
Total: 862.74 Warhammer 40,000:Farseers: 2 at 20.00 each Spiritseers: 2 at 19.95 each Warlock: 11.50 Autarch Skyrunner: 33.00 Triumvirate of Ynnead: 75.00 (we only need Yvraine, but we can't get her on her own as far as I know. The Vysarch and the Yncarne sit this one out.) Rangers: 3 at 33.00 each Drukhari Kabalite Warriors: 2 at 29.00 each (each box has 10, he has 11 on the list. For the purpose of this experiment I'm limiting myself to full boxes of stuff even though you wouldn't buy another whole box if you needed one more dude. Still, 9 poor Kabalites on the Shelf.) Aeldari Guardians: 2 Guardian Squads at 36.25 each (we get one weapon platform we won't use) Dark Reapers: 4 at 41.25 each (we need the numbers and the Autarchs. We have 3 poor Dark Reapers sitting on the shelf) Shining Spears: 3 at 50.00 each. Wave Serpent: 2 at 44.50
Total: 832.90 Total with Codexes: 897.90. You need both the Craftworld Codex (40.00) and the Xenos Index (25.00) since you're using Drukhari and the Triumvirate. Those prices are for the dead-tree books though, the digital editions are considerably cheaper. So once again apologies on the mistakes. Just reinforces I can't do math as soon as I wake up. 40k still comes out on top on both the price and the model count (and has 15 models left out, to boot, so the actual model count you bought for that price is 92, not 77) if we don't include the Codexes. In theory, you don't actually need the Craftworld codex since the Index has all the rules barring the stratagems and Army traits, but in practice the list was using the Codex so it's better to include it. You're still getting 92 models and 2 books versus only 51 models and nothing else (although the sizes vary wildly so it's not that fair a comparison) for "only" 35.16 dollars more on the 40k side. It's not the titanic price difference you make it out to be (and in fact, without the books 40k beats Warmachine by basically the same margin, 29.84)
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