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Post by jpgreat1 on Feb 14, 2018 17:44:40 GMT
Saw this making its rounds, figured I share and ask what people think of it. www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpA_YOL6mN8&feature=youtu.beAnd for the follow up video were karma comes in is here www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYKpbkGy_bY&feature=youtu.beFor those who don't want to watch and want a tldr version see below Now I did ask some of my friends who are really into 40k and they told me Tony was in the right (as the first video explains). Specific phases can trigger specific stratagems and Tony was right to hold accountable his opponent for playing by the rules. But what does this say when GW PR team also decides to drop large sums of money onto a player who didn't follow the rules correctly? What do you think?
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Post by jpgreat1 on Feb 14, 2018 17:57:59 GMT
What I think this further reminds me why I will never pick up a GW game besides the video games. Rules are not clear, rules are not concise, and too much room is left to interpretation. Watching this play out and then seeing how folks reacted ofcourse reminds me of any other video game competition but how the big name in the gaming world handled it just left a sour taste in my mouth. I also think that Alex guy has a heart of gold but more on that later.
I get having been a competitive gamer myself that sometimes the pressure gets to you and mistakes are made. I mean anyone who read the issue with Jarl's team at last years WTC can attest to this. Lets not also forget the drama of Keith getting Caine2 blown away by a menoth gun line only for them to pause the time come back and redo it simply because the guy never hit his jacks with the choir buff. Mistakes happen and happen to the best of us. Clearly this Tony guy was a win at any cost type character, however; he didn't do anything illegal or strong armed his opponent into making a bad decision. To me I think its bad PR (despite my friends disagreeing with me) decision to give Alex a player who didn't follow the rules money. This makes 2 clear statements. 1. GW hates players who are trying to win by any means necessary( which isn't so bad considering sportsmanship is a thing ) & 2. This sends a message that they don't write very initiative rules and that they know this and instead of addressing the rule they reward the player for not following them.
If I was GW I would re-vise the rules if they really felt that bad. Like Warmachine, WH40k rules and faction balances are in a constant state of flux simply because the game truly isn't finished yet and to me its okay to say "hey this rule we don't like cause of what happen to we will address it".
As far as Alex, there is a special place in heaven for him. The guy got majorly lucky that people with money overwhelmingly felt bad for him and offered him something. For him to brush aside large sums of cash and say "give it to charity" shows that he has a heart of gold.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Feb 14, 2018 17:59:59 GMT
My only response involves war crimes by elite commando teams and nuclear weapon bombardments launched from orbit. I'll leave the details to the reader.
Thank you for reinforcing my decision not to play GW games.
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Post by macdaddy on Feb 14, 2018 18:01:53 GMT
I mean, if you want to be a douche and take the win due to a mistake like that go for it, but your still being a douche. There shouldn't be satisfaction for winning a game due to a lame mistake by an opponent like forgetting a phase too early, especially in a crappy game system like GW games.
He was rushing his opponents turn and taking his sweet time during his own turn. IMO Tony was being a douche and got a good dose of karma for trying to capitalize on a simple player mistake. Last time I went to an AOS tourney, an opponent deliberately took ridiculously long rolling dice and moving models to stall the game and win the round with a cheap victory by having 1 more point than me. It almost did not work because I went through my turns very quickly to compensate for his slow play. This is why timed turns or a death-clock is important at high level play.
The first video argument is taking things way too seriously. Using that logic you should never give your opponent a take back/or allow him to make a minor mistake which IMO would create a toxic environment where players come away from the game feeling cheated. Also, assuming the worst of an opponent is a bad way to approach this game. I have only met a very small handful of players that deliberately abuse things or try to "cheat" to win games. And each of them is obvious based on body language and how they interact with me.
This is also a problem with the way Games workshop games function. There are just too many rules all in different places I still do not understand why people play GW games competitively, they are horrible to play in that environment. GW games only really work on a casual level.
On another tangent, this type of competitive mindset in american table top is killing the hobby IMO. I cant even watch Frontline gaming battle reports because its just..boring. A bunch of high powered over the top net lists with silly op combos wailing against each other.
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Post by macdaddy on Feb 14, 2018 18:02:45 GMT
My only response involves war crimes by elite commando teams and nuclear weapon bombardments launched from orbit. I'll leave the details to the reader. Thank you for reinforcing my decision not to play GW games. Hold on there blarg...that sounds like whats going on in Syria right now just gas instead of nukes Lets calm down here
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Post by sludgeogre on Feb 14, 2018 18:06:33 GMT
Totally agree with jpgreat1. This happened because GW games have extremely poor and unclear interactions with super poor judging, especially by players since it seems many of them just make stuff up as they go along and agree to it (house rules seem to be super prevalent in GW games). Even top players in Warmachine forget stuff sometimes, we all do, we're human, but the judging is fair and the players can always count on that.
I think it was extremely stupid for GW to pile on with money on this thing. It undercuts the super competitive players and sends the wrong message about tournament play. I think it's totally fine for someone to help with measuring but not remind their opponent of all the rules. You shouldn't have to aid their skills in a tournament game. In a casual game, absolutely, I'll constantly give my opponent pointers to help them out and give me a tougher game so that I can get better as a player, but when I'm at a tournament, I keep my lips sealed during my opponents turn except to help measure and to offer answers to any of their questions, of which I usually give more information than they ask.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Feb 14, 2018 18:06:45 GMT
My only response involves war crimes by elite commando teams and nuclear weapon bombardments launched from orbit. I'll leave the details to the reader. Thank you for reinforcing my decision not to play GW games. Hold on there blarg...that sounds like whats going on in Syria right now just gas instead of nukes Lets calm down here I was very calm when I typed that. My lip didn't curl up into a snarl and no furniture was broken. I am very proud of myself.
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Post by leotherat on Feb 14, 2018 18:21:17 GMT
I didn't watch the videos but if the GW one is the one I suspect then you should know that the guy Tony "beat" was offeted $5000 by a GW player who owns league of Legends (I think that's the Co's name). The player donated the money to a childrens hospital then got his boss to match that gift of $5000. GW then also matched that gift to the hospital. Now GW is thinking of offering a sportsmanship award at major events. www.warhammer-community.com/2018/02/13/the-very-best-of-sports/
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Post by jpgreat1 on Feb 14, 2018 18:21:25 GMT
I've personally wanted to comment on a few 40k youtube personalities who were commenting on this and the nature of competitive play in 40k. But I figured I would just be pumping how good warmachine is and it wouldn't be a debate but just two people yelling at each other.
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Post by jpgreat1 on Feb 14, 2018 18:22:30 GMT
I didn't watch the videos but if the GW one is the one I suspect then you should know that the guy Tony "beat" was offeted $5000 by a GW player who owns league of Legends (I think that's the Co's name). The player donated the money to a childrens hospital then got his boss to match that gift of $5000. GW then also matched that gift to the hospital. Now GW is thinking of offering a sportsmanship award at major events. www.warhammer-community.com/2018/02/13/the-very-best-of-sports/Yes I stated that in my first post. Thank you for providing the direct link though
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Feb 14, 2018 18:28:31 GMT
GW does not want, support, nor make competitive games. This has always been the case, both in practice and in what they actually say. I have never understood why players even have tournaments for them.
Which isn't too say that their models aren't awesome, or their games aren't fun... But they never have been nor never will be something to play competitively. Their games just aren't written that way.
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Post by macdaddy on Feb 14, 2018 18:42:22 GMT
GW does not want, support, nor make competitive games. This has always been the case, both in practice and in what they actually say. I have never understood why players even have tournaments for them. Which isn't too say that their models aren't awesome, or their games aren't fun... But they never have been nor never will be something to play competitively. Their games just aren't written that way. They are actually fun to pay casually. But a competitive GW based community is terrible IME.
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Post by minmaximus on Feb 14, 2018 20:06:26 GMT
Without the full details (and hell if I'm gonna trust a video to dish them out) its hard to say who to side with.
I mean there's a difference between holding your opponent to the rules and being a rules shark. The former is good, solid, fair play. The second is deliberately hawking your opponent on shit and hounding them on every little detail. Ones just trying to keep a level playing field and the other is rules lawyering your opponent to death and the difference is really hard to tell without sitting there watching the entire event in the moment.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Feb 14, 2018 20:21:06 GMT
Preaching to the choir here.
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Post by jpgreat1 on Feb 14, 2018 20:27:31 GMT
Without the full details (and hell if I'm gonna trust a video to dish them out) its hard to say who to side with. I mean there's a difference between holding your opponent to the rules and being a rules shark. The former is good, solid, fair play. The second is deliberately hawking your opponent on shit and hounding them on every little detail. Ones just trying to keep a level playing field and the other is rules lawyering your opponent to death and the difference is really hard to tell without sitting there watching the entire event in the moment. The 2nd video link contains the entire finals game but on the side you can watch the other game mentioned in the first description in full. You can make your choice by watching it directly.
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