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Post by Manathern on Feb 12, 2018 15:03:27 GMT
What is your game plan when using him? What do you use? How do you move? Do you go fo scenario or attrition? What is your thinking?
For me it's a case of so simple, I can't really figure it out and I end up going all out on the offense. I often end up loosing on attrition even if my opponent is quite banged up.
My typical list generally looks like this:
Protectorate Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Creator's Might (Amon 1) High Allegiant Amon Ad-Raza [+29] - Castigator [12] - Castigator [12] - Crusader [10] - Crusader [10] - Crusader [10] - Indictor [15] - Indictor [15] - Vigilant [9] Three Wracks [0(3)] Vassal Mechanik [1] Vassal Mechanik [1] Vassal Mechanik [1] Vassal of Menoth [0(3)] Vassal of Menoth [0(3)] Choir of Menoth (min) [4] Choir of Menoth (min) [4]
Or this: Protectorate Army - 74 / 75 points [Theme] The Creator's Might (Amon 1) High Allegiant Amon Ad-Raza [+29] - Crusader [10] - Crusader [10] - Crusader [10] - Crusader [10] - Dervish [7] - Dervish [7] - Dervish [7] - Dervish [7] - Templar [15] - Vigilant [9] Three Wracks [0(3)] Vassal Mechanik [1] Vassal Mechanik [1] Vassal Mechanik [1] Vassal of Menoth [0(3)] Vassal of Menoth [0(3)] Choir of Menoth (min) [4] Choir of Menoth (min) [4]
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Post by macdaddy on Feb 12, 2018 15:14:26 GMT
Well you can either, shove jacks into your opponents face and kill the world...ORRRRR you can shove jacks into your opponents face and kill the world.
Honestly he is a very bland caster IMO. Spamming jacks and hitting hard with a un-intuiative spell combo like synergy+mobility is just bleh. He also ruined my chances of running repenter spam with malekus because he is design space hog.
But I digress....
I am honestly not sure why people don't take more crusaders with him, dervishes are great and all, but they are kind of squishy.
Why not run him in Faith-full masses? Be a super awesome snowflake! +7 pow and +5 mat swing FTW!
(Amon 1) High Allegiant Amon Ad-Raza [+29] - Crusader [10] - Crusader [10] - Crusader [10] - Crusader [10] - Crusader [10] - Hierophant [3] The Covenant of Menoth [0(4)] Vassal Mechanik [1] Vassal Mechanik [1] Vassal of Menoth [3] Vassal of Menoth [3] Choir of Menoth (min) [4] Choir of Menoth (min) [4] Idrian Skirmishers (max) [15] - Idrian Skirmisher Chieftain & Guide [0(5)] Idrian Skirmishers (max) [15] - Idrian Skirmisher Chieftain & Guide [5]
Speed 6 Mat 11 P+S 25 crusaders FTW!
That should help you play more patiently and the idrian fodder screen almost guarantees you an alpha when played properly.
What are you typically playing into?
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Post by Manathern on Feb 12, 2018 15:15:29 GMT
Do you have Amon stand back most of the game and move in to remove annoyance as needed with flashing blade or trip (what I do) or do you play him forward? Is he better in Faithful mass with a screen of zealots?
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Post by Manathern on Feb 12, 2018 15:19:59 GMT
Well you can either, shove jacks into your opponents face and kill the world...ORRRRR you can shove jacks into your opponents face and kill the world. Honestly he is a very bland caster IMO. Spamming jacks and hitting hard with a un-intuiative spell combo like synergy+mobility is just bleh. He also ruined my chances of running repenter spam with malekus because he is design space hog. But I digress.... I am honestly not sure why people don't take more crusaders with him, dervishes are great and all, but they are kind of squishy. Why not run him in Faith-full masses? Be a super awesome snowflake! +7 pow and +5 mat swing FTW! (Amon 1) High Allegiant Amon Ad-Raza [+29] - Crusader [10] - Crusader [10] - Crusader [10] - Crusader [10] - Crusader [10] - Hierophant [3] The Covenant of Menoth [0(4)] Vassal Mechanik [1] Vassal Mechanik [1] Vassal of Menoth [3] Vassal of Menoth [3] Choir of Menoth (min) [4] Choir of Menoth (min) [4] Idrian Skirmishers (max) [15] - Idrian Skirmisher Chieftain & Guide [0(5)] Idrian Skirmishers (max) [15] - Idrian Skirmisher Chieftain & Guide [5] Speed 6 Mat 11 P+S 25 crusaders FTW! That should help you play more patiently and the idrian fodder screen almost guarantees you an alpha when played properly. What are you typically playing into? I'm generally playing into Cryx, Legion (relay heavy legion meta), Cygnar, and Troll. I got my ass handed to me against CoC at a tournament this weekend. Their colossal is hard to get close to and he just kept on picking off my jacks. I tend to agree with you on the Crusader/heavy warjack thing.
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Post by macdaddy on Feb 12, 2018 15:23:22 GMT
Do you have Amon stand back most of the game and move in to remove annoyance as needed with flashing blade or trip (what I do) or do you play him forward? Is he better in Faithful mass with a screen of zealots? I would say it depends on the match up. Some match ups he can play forward and be protected by the book others he needs to stay back into you get the full alpha. Control 12 sucks though. I don't use him much in combat, which is sad, but he can mix it up in the late game if things get tough. I think the second question depends on your pairing. FM gives you a combined arms list that trades the staying power of running 10 or so jacks for the versatility of the idrian screen. Idrians die to a strong breeze after you op minfeat though so be aware of that. Zealots are cool, but they are actually not going to be much faster than your jacks, meaning they might not preform very well as a screen as idrians would. Part of idrians appeal to me is the threat range they project and thier ability to hem at your opponent and slow their advance. You lose that with zealots. Some casters run zealots well (like testament or Feora 3) I don;t think amon is one of those casters. Also based on your meta you may really like FM. The idrians plus wall really helps in the Drag and drop CoC match up and they help you get the alpha into legion as well. They also skirmish amazingly and will kill a lot of things if you get used to using them. I have a strong love for idrians now.
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Post by Manathern on Feb 12, 2018 16:05:29 GMT
Could more guns on the approach be a good idea? I was thinking Vanquishers and Reckoners.
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Post by macdaddy on Feb 12, 2018 16:21:52 GMT
Could more guns on the approach be a good idea? I was thinking Vanquishers and Reckoners. I actually think Amon with a revelator has potential. Vanquishers are kind of overpriced, unless you really need the AOE, its better just to go with a reckoner for the extra speed, higher pow, and lower cost. You could for sure go with a reckoner build, but you will have less jacks, and therefore, make it harder to generate synergy. I would say crusaders is the way to go. 5 of them means you will be able to get 2 to the "MAXIMUM OVERDRIVE" mode of +5 mat and +7 pow.
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Choco
Junior Strategist
Gorten, best feet in the game.
Posts: 571
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Post by Choco on Feb 12, 2018 19:22:34 GMT
*Note: I'm a Merc who dabbles in Menoth (they are a side project with special mods and painting) who is on a Reznik kick in a journeyman league right now. So a lot of what I am saying here is in theorymachine land.
I'm so happy to see someone else who appreciates Amon in Faithful Masses. The extra MAT you get from HoV is huge in getting your synergy chain started. The fact that Idrians are pretty self sufficient, a caster like Amon loves them since he doesn't need to support them in any way (love the list MacDaddy!). This also makes it easier for you to deliver your jacks with as little damage done to them while moving across the table.
I'm also gonna throw this out there: Exemplar Interdiction can be an interesting idea here too. You get the 2 inches of deployment to get across the table faster, and your jacks gain blessed weapons. This is important in the Cygnar match-ups (Arcane Shield) and you get all your normal support models plus some utility in Rhovan & Co. or some great tar-pit options like Errants. Also, aren't there defense buffs running around in the other factions that you can now ignore too? Yes, you don't get the damage and accuracy bonuses you get from Faithful Masses, but depending on your meta, this is a very viable option.
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Post by correlion on Feb 13, 2018 7:38:04 GMT
I like Indictor and Sanctifier with Amon. Fortify on Indictor can help with targeted dispels like chasten.
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Post by slinkdawg on Feb 13, 2018 16:11:12 GMT
I was struggling with my deployment and unpack for a while with Amon.
This is what I have been running:
Theme: The Creator's Might 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
High Allegiant Amon Ad-Raza - WJ: +29 - Hierophant - PC: 3 - Crusader - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10) - Crusader - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10) - Crusader - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 9) - Dervish - PC: 7 - Dervish - PC: 7 - Dervish - PC: 7 - Dervish - PC: 7 - Devout - PC: 9 - Templar - PC: 15
Vassal of Menoth - PC: 0 Vassal of Menoth - PC: 0 The Covenant of Menoth - PC: 0 Vassal Mechanik - PC: 1 Wrack - PC: 1
Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4 Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4 Visgoth Juviah Rhoven & Honor Guard - Rhoven, Gius & Cassian: 9
THEME: The Creator's Might
So, there was a ton deploying on the front line between 4 heavies, 4 dervishes, and a devout. Also, the book, Amon, and double choir.
I got some great advice to stagger my jacks and choir. I deploy the Choir in little 2 man vertical pairs. They walk a few inches up, choir hymn the jacks behind them, and then repo up the board 3” further (theme benefit). Your jacks can then run up the board under mobility and still have choir in range to walk and hymn them. That has been a very impactful change. It allows the jacks to get up field for scenario and still get their choir buffs.
I played one game since and my deployment/unpack went much smoother. There are still some fine nuances I need to nail down. For example, deploying the book so you can get it up behind a key forest and in a central zone.
After learning that choir trick, creator’s might looks much more interesting. It just plays very differently from other Protectorate themes. The repo 3” takes some getting used to.
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Post by correlion on Feb 14, 2018 6:55:53 GMT
I have the following list atm:
War Room Army
Protectorate of Menoth - CM amon
Theme: The Creator's Might 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
High Allegiant Amon Ad-Raza - WJ: +29 - Hierophant - PC: 0 - Dervish - PC: 7 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7) - Dervish - PC: 7 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7) - Sanctifier - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) - Indictor - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 1) - Vigilant - PC: 9 - Dervish - PC: 7 - Templar - PC: 15 - Dervish - PC: 7 - Dervish - PC: 7
The Covenant of Menoth - PC: 0 Vassal of Menoth - PC: 0 Vassal of Menoth - PC: 3 Wrack - PC: 1 Vassal Mechanik - PC: 1 Anastasia di Bray - PC: 3
Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4 Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4
THEME: The Creator's Might ---
GENERATED : 02/14/2018 08:46:34 BUILD ID : 2060.18-02-04
Key ideas: Indictor+Fortify. He is absolute pain if enemy caster is relying on target dispells, or he can sometimes break animi combo for enemy warbeasts. Sanctifier: He can help with incorporeals(you need to do something with these nasty gremlins and Cryx engines). If you some of your jacks are dead you can kill your own choir in order to provide some souls for him =) Anastasia: +1 to start roll is always nice
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Post by correlion on Feb 14, 2018 6:57:30 GMT
20 def from vigilant's cover + templar should be enough to fix shooting issues
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Feb 14, 2018 15:04:12 GMT
I'm also gonna throw this out there: Exemplar Interdiction can be an interesting idea here too. You get the 2 inches of deployment to get across the table faster, and your jacks gain blessed weapons. The Interdiction is my default theme for warjack heavy armies now. Blessed is HUGE in so many match ups and 2" of deployment also help a lot. Even minimum investment in units ( like 20pts of Errants+Seneschal+Gade/Knight Seneschal) gives a nice, fighty screent to play with, and you need those for scenario play anyway. Creator's Might is a dead theme for me, a really , really bad one. I don't see choosing a few more free points it gives for having multiple jacks over bonuses and versatility of Interdiction or Faithful Masses.
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kaernak
Junior Strategist
Either pray to Menoth or feel his fury. You'll burn either way.
Posts: 172
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Post by kaernak on Feb 14, 2018 17:29:29 GMT
On a focus strapped caster who really only has 4 to play around with (unless you know you are winning the game, then 5 because you drop fortify) I like the extra focus on the first turn. I really don't understand all the hate for Amon on scenario. I hear it from several people but if you need units you have choir, mechanics and vassals for solos, and all the warjacks. Things are squishy, yes, but it is doable.
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Choco
Junior Strategist
Gorten, best feet in the game.
Posts: 571
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Post by Choco on Feb 14, 2018 18:36:02 GMT
On a focus strapped caster who really only has 4 to play around with (unless you know you are winning the game, then 5 because you drop fortify) I like the extra focus on the first turn. I really don't understand all the hate for Amon on scenario. I hear it from several people but if you need units you have choir, mechanics and vassals for solos, and all the warjacks. Things are squishy, yes, but it is doable. That's why I like Faithful Masses. You get all the same support models plus the option for Idrians (preferred choice) or Zealots and some paladins to fill in as needed. Vilmon as a cheap shield guard. Then top it off, you gain Hand of Vengeance. This alone helps immensely in your armor cracking and does the job in helping your accuracy before you get Synergy going. This theme allows for you to build a more interesting and balanced list without needing to bring along 7+ jacks.
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