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Post by inkwell84 on Feb 12, 2018 13:55:42 GMT
This is a partial list Trevor discussed in the Theme review episode (#1). How would you guys fill this out or do you think now that the theme metal ha e shaken out there are stronger ways to design Doa? I really want a Doa list 😀
War Room Army
Skorne - DoA
Theme: Disciples of Agony 1 / 1 Free Cards 59 / 75 Army
Lord Assassin Morghoul - WB: +29 - Titan Gladiator - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 15) - Titan Cannoneer - PC: 17 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) - Blackhide Wrastler - PC: 16 - Blind Walker - PC: 10
Paingiver Task Master - PC: 0
Farrow Brigands - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15 - Farrow Brigand Warlord - PC: 4 Paingiver Bloodrunners - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9 Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew - Leader & 1 Grunt: 2
THEME: Disciples of Agony ---
GENERATED : 02/12/2018 08:49:18 BUILD ID : 2060.18-02-04
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didder
Junior Strategist
Posts: 166
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Post by didder on Feb 12, 2018 14:19:46 GMT
Doesn't this need beast handlers? Also, it'd be nice to get a splatter boar in there for the cannoneer. Maybe the wrestler needs downgraded to a battle boar to free up points
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Feb 12, 2018 15:53:48 GMT
Morghoul2 has a lot of ways to play in DoA, usually with guns. The Blindwalker to me is the only essential piece in my mind. A more personal threat version might have some combination of Archidon or maybe a Swamp Horror for threat extension. Usually though, a double Brigand boat is favored.
For the same points though, I prefer double Raiders. They do a comparable job, with AD+Pathfinder. Every ability on the Taskmaster's card is good with them, and I own two units from the glory days of MKII.
One other way I like the idea of Morghoul2 DoA is Mammoth+Splatter Boar. Those shots under animus, with Feat+Mortality....that sounds very attractive.
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Feb 12, 2018 18:16:47 GMT
I think the best way to use a Morgul2 list is to be able to threaten all of his tricks successfully:
War Room Army
Skorne - Morgul 2 doa
Theme: Disciples of Agony 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Lord Assassin Morghoul - WB: +29 - Archidon - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10) - Battle Boar - PC: 7 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7) - Blind Walker - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10) - Titan Gladiator - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 2) - Cyclops Shaman - PC: 8 - Archidon - PC: 10
Paingiver Task Master - PC: 0 Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor - PC: 0 Paingiver Task Master - PC: 3
Croak Raiders - Leader & 9 Grunts: 16 Paingiver Bloodrunners - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9 Paingiver Bloodrunners - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9 Paingiver Beast Handlers - Leader & 3 Grunts: 5 Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew - Leader & 1 Grunt: 2
I love reposition on the Swamp Gobbers to get behind their own cloud wall. Also two task masters can give the Croaks both tough and Reposition for extra survivability. Archidons make great use of Incorporeal and Primal, as well as the feat. Lastly, the Shaman is overwhelmed with great options, with potential to be an arc node, dishing out Primal or Rush, or stripping enemy spells.
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boozy
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Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Feb 12, 2018 19:51:27 GMT
I think the best way to use a Morgul2 list is to be able to threaten all of his tricks successfully: War Room Army Skorne - Morgul 2 doa Theme: Disciples of Agony 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Lord Assassin Morghoul - WB: +29 - Archidon - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10) - Battle Boar - PC: 7 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7) - Blind Walker - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10) - Titan Gladiator - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 2) - Cyclops Shaman - PC: 8 - Archidon - PC: 10 Paingiver Task Master - PC: 0 Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor - PC: 0 Paingiver Task Master - PC: 3 Croak Raiders - Leader & 9 Grunts: 16 Paingiver Bloodrunners - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9 Paingiver Bloodrunners - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9 Paingiver Beast Handlers - Leader & 3 Grunts: 5 Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew - Leader & 1 Grunt: 2 I love reposition on the Swamp Gobbers to get behind their own cloud wall. Also two task masters can give the Croaks both tough and Reposition for extra survivability. Archidons make great use of Incorporeal and Primal, as well as the feat. Lastly, the Shaman is overwhelmed with great options, with potential to be an arc node, dishing out Primal or Rush, or stripping enemy spells. Morghoul2 can be built many ways, but I agree you need to threaten most of his package. I start with an Archidon+Blindwalker, both for their animi mainly, but able to do real production if needed. Having credible personal work/assassination available is important in all phases. I love the idea of ambushing Bloodrunners, but I've not found a list with them in which I didn't feel like I was sacrificing too much elsewhere to fit them in.
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Feb 12, 2018 20:39:11 GMT
Bloodrunners don't seem too important until I saw them on the table. Their ability to gum up the enemy, clear chaff, and surgically remove important support models is amazing. I think their ability to jam is what is most important though. Morgul simply doesn't have staying power. He NEEDS the enemy slowed while he deletes them from range until he can set up his assassination run.
Wrastler was the first and easiest model to remove. Primal is better and cheaper, plus it addresses Skorne's hitting problems.
The second raider unit was the second component I excised. With the reposition on the Bloodrunners you can easily get out of the way for what you want to shoot (your own stealth prevents you from blocking LoS). You only need really enough to delete the blocking elements of your opponent's army.
The common mistakes I see in DoA lists: 1. Focusing on including too many minions beasts. You really only need an offensive animus and an arc node. Everything else is just extra gravy to help you delete armor... But there are much better Skorne lists for dealing with mass armor. 2. Focusing on too many infantry units for the extra points. DoA's biggest strength is it's ability to add precious minions animus to the Skorne stable. People get lost in the weeds trying to get free points when they should really just be playing Masters of War if they want a melee infantry list or Winds of Death if you want a shooting infantry list. Your infantry should be there to enable the Assassination run, that is it. 3. Playing anyone other than Morgul2. Every other DoA caster works better in a different theme or is just inferior to the other DoA casters available. Morgul 1 and Naaresh both belong in IWH. They don't need Minions beasts to get work done and they don't support infantry at all. Xekaaar and Morgul3 are both just crappier versions of Morgul1 & 2 respectively. Don't bother.
So I landed on this list. Only part I'm unsure of is the Swamp Gobbers. I'm not sure they are needed but blocking LoS with a cloud can be very handy to protect our beasts on the approach.
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boozy
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Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Feb 13, 2018 12:53:54 GMT
I agree with most of what you said. DoA is bit of a trap, since most of our 'beasts are designed around Rush and Primal, Rage, and Elasticity conflict with it. I like them with 'beasts that have native Pathfinder/Flight, speed, or are cheap. For combat animi, a single Battle Boar can be amazing for Archidons in particular, and I like them with Naaresh in DoA. Otherwise, I'd just stick with the Blindwalker or Splatter Boar with the Mammoth.
Overloading infantry is not a categorical fault though, since Morghoul2 is an excellent debuff warlock now in addition to personal threat. Brigands and Croaks ARE quite good with him, and are better than in house shooting options in some cases.
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Feb 13, 2018 16:55:44 GMT
I still think you can build a better shooting list with Winds of Death than DoA, especially if you include Turtles, but Croaks and Brigands are certainly good so you won't do too badly with them either. I've seen the Mammoth + Splatter Boar combo... It's a trap. The Mammoth simply costs too much and is too difficult to maneuver into position for his shooting output at that those points. Putting him on the table basically requires both a Krea and an Agonizer or he is too easily killed for his points, and at that point you are better off playing IWH.
DoA is our "jank" theme. And there is nothing that jank does better than assassinate. So that's what I'd build the list towards.
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Feb 13, 2018 16:58:20 GMT
Sorry, I should clarify: most of my statements here are purely from the perspective of "maximum win". Skorne themes and most of our models are pretty much all functional and workable. It's kind of hard to go wrong and playing Minion slavery is super fun!
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boozy
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Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Feb 13, 2018 17:16:45 GMT
That Mammoth+Splatter Boar combo being a trap doesn't match my experience. Every meta is different, but I've had good success with it under Morghoul2. I only send it forward under feat turn, and make it a point to kill everything within range to shake Blind. Otherwise, I can usually use it to drop scatters and use volume rerolls to get boosted blasts.
Of course, this is all assuming I drop it into a matchup where this can work. I agree though that it's probably not the optimal build for Morghoul2.
Using the entirety of DoA to deliver Morghoul2 though isn't the way I play him. I think his 'beast loadout needs to be sufficient to give him credible threat, but the rest of the list needs to do the bulk of the work, and Morghoul2 instead acts mostly as an area denial against scoring. I do like your idea about Bloodrunners, but I've found that when I tried it, I either didn't have enough left over for units, or solos, or warbeasts in some combination.
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granor
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Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Feb 13, 2018 20:19:19 GMT
I have been running DOA for 2 months now and I have been aiming it at high def descent arm builds like madrak def 16 arm 18 champs. Also want to take on circle wolds builds and hoping to take haley 3 biulds. Here are a few things I have found in no particular order
Croaks are good with mortality two units are more than twice as good as one unit of them (note I didn't notice you can give one unit two paingiver task master actions)
The list wants to run at least 40 points of units (paingiver master tormentors are super good)
Ambushers are good with mortality
Bokor shamblers and the spirit colderen have real potential
The list wants primal more than rage
Blindwalker is really a good beast in this
Morgoul2's list wants at least one archidon and more works too
Ironback spitter really is a good beast
Don't put too much in the list that depends on mortality (shambler issue)
Expensive beasts tend to not be worth it
Shaman are great for the blind walker animus but are underpowered without snipe and rely on primal to get anything done in melee (magic weapons are good)
Don't put in too many beasts that require primal to get work done
I ALWAYS bring a mist speaker in the list (bonus to shamblers and ambushers)
Rhinodons are good in the list
Using Morgoul2 to assassinate your opponent is hard to set up without being killed in melee (double croaks help but don't plan on this)
I am wondering if with the void leech and bone swarms the entire list can pivot to be an anti-cryx build. But so far my rasheth list has better than a 60% win rate locally vs cryx so it may not be needed.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Feb 13, 2018 20:45:51 GMT
I have been running DOA for 2 months now and I have been aiming it at high def descent arm builds like madrak def 16 arm 18 champs. Also want to take on circle wolds builds and hoping to take haley 3 biulds. Here are a few things I have found in no particular order Croaks are good with mortality two units are more than twice as good as one unit of them (note I didn't notice you can give one unit two paingiver task master actions) The list wants to run at least 40 points of units (paingiver master tormentors are super good) Ambushers are good with mortality Bokor shamblers and the spirit colderen have real potential The list wants primal more than rage Blindwalker is really a good beast in this Morgoul2's list wants at least one archidon and more works too Ironback spitter really is a good beast Don't put too much in the list that depends on mortality (shambler issue) Expensive beasts tend to not be worth it Shaman are great for the blind walker animus but are underpowered without snipe and rely on primal to get anything done in melee (magic weapons are good) Don't put in too many beasts that require primal to get work done I ALWAYS bring a mist speaker in the list (bonus to shamblers and ambushers) Rhinodons are good in the list Using Morgoul2 to assassinate your opponent is hard to set up without being killed in melee (double croaks help but don't plan on this) I am wondering if with the void leech and bone swarms the entire list can pivot to be an anti-cryx build. But so far my rasheth list has better than a 60% win rate locally vs cryx so it may not be needed. I solidly agree with almost all your points, and when I've run Morghoul2 without the Mammoth, it's been in a double Croak build with an Archidon and Blindwalker. The Void Leeches are something I like the idea of too. I just got one in my Blindwater box set, and AD Croaks that can't easily be targeted by spells on Turn One are tempting.
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Post by jagius021 on Feb 14, 2018 17:34:28 GMT
I've played a lot of morg 2 DOA and I really enjoy it. Some things I have observed:
I really love having my minion solo be the gremlin swarm. It threatens scenario presence really well and I always feel like I get my points out of it even if they never perform a single action.
Brigands are really good under morg, having a tough unit for sac pawn keeps him extra safe at range.
Blind Walker is awesome. He shield guards important models and channels spells while taking damage like a boss. Throwing primal on him makes him do work in melee.
Battleboar is what drew me to DOA and why I stay. I think it has a pretty profound psychological impact on the game because the threat keeps people honest. Even a shaman under primal can be a threat.
Bloodrunners ambushing is really good. But remember you can simple AD them if you opponent hasn't deployed in a way that ambush would be beneficial, or if their list wouldn't be ideal to ambush into.
Road hog is really cute but just dies too easily. But his spray and blind usually means everything will be hit.
War hog should be left at home, the gladiator does it better.
Gun boar isn't very useful here.
Razor boars are kinda fun actually, counter charge on morg with blind fan is situationally good. Fully buffed boars make for good missles but offer little else.
Nihilators don't really perform to expectations, they just need more support.
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Post by inkwell84 on Feb 15, 2018 3:19:58 GMT
I've played a lot of morg 2 DOA and I really enjoy it. Some things I have observed: I really love having my minion solo be the gremlin swarm. It threatens scenario presence really well and I always feel like I get my points out of it even if they never perform a single action. Brigands are really good under morg, having a tough unit for sac pawn keeps him extra safe at range. Blind Walker is awesome. He shield guards important models and channels spells while taking damage like a boss. Throwing primal on him makes him do work in melee. Battleboar is what drew me to DOA and why I stay. I think it has a pretty profound psychological impact on the game because the threat keeps people honest. Even a shaman under primal can be a threat. Bloodrunners ambushing is really good. But remember you can simple AD them if you opponent hasn't deployed in a way that ambush would be beneficial, or if their list wouldn't be ideal to ambush into. Road hog is really cute but just dies too easily. But his spray and blind usually means everything will be hit. War hog should be left at home, the gladiator does it better. Gun boar isn't very useful here. Razor boars are kinda fun actually, counter charge on morg with blind fan is situationally good. Fully buffed boars make for good missles but offer little else. Nihilators don't really perform to expectations, they just need more support. Not big on croaks? Archidons?? Wrastler?
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Post by jagius021 on Feb 15, 2018 20:33:24 GMT
Sorry I thought I added my part on archidon, I didnt! He's excellent, I recommend one. The Animus makes morg a threat that can yo-yo back to safety and a flying high def beast gets where it needs to go and can even avoid free strikes from blinded targets pretty well (though if they connect that arm 16 isn't going to save you)
I haven't used the croaks yet, they look good though. This is simply because I dont own them.
Same thing with wrastler, I always wanted the mat buff that primal gives.
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