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Post by newangel on May 20, 2018 14:09:05 GMT
Been away from the forums for a while (well...I've been reading, just not posting).
With regards to your first question (What does Wurmwood in Bones not like to see?) I'd have to say huge amounts of armour spam and/or cloudwalls.
Against a wall of Jacks you simply can't attrition them out of the game and vs someone like Harkevich you will have a turn where your control mechanism through Stranglehold simply won't work. Fortunately he is a lot less common than he used to be. Amon is another potential problem and I fear it will only get worse if the Indictor gets through CID as is. Shutting down spellcasting really hurts Wurmwood and eKrueger who both do amazing things in Bones. Your pair should be designed to handle these matchups.
Cloudwalls are a slightly different beast. Cassius and Wurmwood give you some game, but a good player will make you put a lot of resources in for very little benefit. Ideally they will be using it to deliver their army to you and out attrition you in a slightly different way. The 2 to worry about are Haley3 and (again) Harkevich with Kodiaks. In the case of Haley you will need to use all the resources at your disposal to get meaningful hits through the clouds. This means using your own manakins as targets for other models in the unit to spray as well as your blackclad sprays to reduce the cloudwall as quickly as possible. In this particular situation the Battle Engine is actually more meaningful since it has a far more accurate spray and it helps make your blackclad sprays more accurate. I've heard it said that Haley3 in Gravediggers doesn't pack much punch but that simply isn't true. With Ragman and Aiyana the list hits hard in melee - way above what you would expect it too. The lack of blessed weapons in Bones also means you will have a hard time hitting the majority of the opponents models. Key models are the armour fixers so target them as quickly as you can. Other key models to go for are the Express Team since they shut down a huge benefit of the theme. With them gone the Haley list will struggle to fully kill your heavies. To tailor a little more effectively for this matchup I have seen a mistspeaker added. Putting Guidance on a Battle Engine is a great way to keep it contributing.
I have also refined my Wurmwood list and chosen Bradigus as my pair. I haven't bothered with the Wold guardian with Wurmwood since the Stoneshaper has helped in the damage department and if I see serious armour Bradigus typically scares it off. In the case of masses of cheaper Jacks I have found more Strangleholds to be key. I currently have 3 Woldwardens and Megalith and it packs a punch while being able to control heavy spam in the 18-19ARM mark.
With regards to your second question about managing clock I wholeheartedly agree with Macdaddy and Maplewhisky. Practice is really the only way to improve. Recognizing your best plays comes from understanding what your opponent wants to do and denying it. It is worth getting some practice games in with a buddy and pausing the clock to walk through the key activations on important turns (as well as the potential counterplay). Taking away the clock pressure will allow you to see things that in a normal game you may miss (and then later fail to recollect). Then in a competitive setting you'll see them much more easily and be able to better make your choices.
Best of luck!
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Post by chaffmaster on Jun 3, 2018 21:27:06 GMT
It's an interesting thread for me because I came to similar list conclusions with much less transition but am now looking for an ideal pairing. I actually see light jacks or budget heavies that hit hard as spams as the worst counter and boostable shooting list that ignore terrain as an issue. So imho problems are vyros 2, kaelyssa, durst, Amon , bradigus, karcheev, harkevich, etc etc, I think for different reasons kraye, Sloane is an issue. So for me the off pair needs to answer armour and guns. On that basis it's Brad or Kaya 3 I guess, but happy to have suggestions have cnsidered secret masters baldur2
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Post by phantomsig on Jun 26, 2018 1:35:32 GMT
Hi macdaddy , xadmar , newangel and all, Sorry for the delay in replying! Thanks for the feedback and tips! After a few games I have brought the bonegrinders back, and thrown in Eilish. I also removed the woldguardian and put in a second woldwarden. The woldwyrds I think are all needed. I find that i need some form of ranged damage/pressure for the two turns where im strangleholding key models. The purgation also punishes upkeeps. Three of them mean i can cover the entire board, or put strong pressure on a single spot. I am also one of those silly people who feel bad if i dont have at least 3 free models. Re: The assassination using hellmouths, how do you achieve a double hellmouth without the first hellmouth target sucking in the second hellmouth target, or blocking the assassination target from being pushed to the second hellmouth target? In my mind the first hm target is a mannikin, and the second is a sentry stone?
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Post by kuririnad on Jun 26, 2018 2:26:04 GMT
I think you hellmouth pull your target with a manakin and pull your warbeast with a different manakin before it charges in.
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Post by phantomsig on Jun 26, 2018 6:07:52 GMT
oooooh clever, thank you!
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Wurmwood
Jun 26, 2018 10:26:34 GMT
via mobile
Post by macdaddy on Jun 26, 2018 10:26:34 GMT
I think you hellmouth pull your target with a manakin and pull your warbeast with a different manakin before it charges in. This! Also it is possible with shifting stones, you just have to make the angles super wonky. Honestly the only time I really Hellmouth twice is when I’m assassinating someone but there have been a few times it has made an amazing Threat extender.
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Post by newangel on Jun 26, 2018 12:03:52 GMT
There are a couple of different ways. Manakins are usually the easiest since they die immediately to the POW12, but in a pinch a shifting stone will do. Stones make a great second target since it doesn't get pulled by the first hellmouth, though positioning is pretty key. Since a stone usually blocks charge lanes afterwards be sure to have some shooting available to finish it off to clear the path. Thankfully they have such low defense that they are easily hit pretty much regardless of what is shooting them. I have also sacrificed Blackclads in this way since they are extremely mobile, but their higher defense means you want a boost available and/or puppet master.
As Macdaddy said though, the double pull is usually only done when going for an assassination. A single Hellmouth per turn is usually quite sufficient and Wurmwood usually has a lot of things to do with his Fury.
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xadmar
Junior Strategist
Posts: 173
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Post by xadmar on Jun 26, 2018 14:35:19 GMT
Hi macdaddy , xadmar , newangel and all, Sorry for the delay in replying! Thanks for the feedback and tips! After a few games I have brought the bonegrinders back, and thrown in Eilish. I also removed the woldguardian and put in a second woldwarden. The woldwyrds I think are all needed. I find that i need some form of ranged damage/pressure for the two turns where im strangleholding key models. The purgation also punishes upkeeps. Three of them mean i can cover the entire board, or put strong pressure on a single spot. I am also one of those silly people who feel bad if i dont have at least 3 free models. Re: The assassination using hellmouths, how do you achieve a double hellmouth without the first hellmouth target sucking in the second hellmouth target, or blocking the assassination target from being pushed to the second hellmouth target? In my mind the first hm target is a mannikin, and the second is a sentry stone? Here is a Video on how to do the double pull from Jaden from Druids Dice/Line of Sight when he was running Circle before turning Grymkin then Trolls. www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYYNsEQYpIU
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Post by phantomsig on Jun 27, 2018 5:38:12 GMT
Thanks everybody. Will check out that video tonight.
I attempted a double hellmouth pull last night, and the plan was brilliant. Was aiming to take out two chargers (the key damage output in the list as stranglehold was controlling the other heavies).
Forgot i wanted to feat, so the forest would of blocked line of sight.
Decided not to feat, when i sucked in Megalith, i also sucked in a woldwyrd, blocking the charge lane.
Amazing concept, some complexity (Wurmwood's motto right?)
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Post by macdaddy on Jun 27, 2018 23:06:47 GMT
Thanks everybody. Will check out that video tonight. I attempted a double hellmouth pull last night, and the plan was brilliant. Was aiming to take out two chargers (the key damage output in the list as stranglehold was controlling the other heavies). Forgot i wanted to feat, so the forest would of blocked line of sight. Decided not to feat, when i sucked in Megalith, i also sucked in a woldwyrd, blocking the charge lane. Amazing concept, some complexity (Wurmwood's motto right?) That's why its typically only worth it for an assassination, because its so technical to pull off you have to dedicate a lot of time to it with pre-measuring. Especially when doing it for the first few times Always measure twice, maybe thrice I also like to leave bases down to remind me of where models need to be or leave sticks down to remind me of lanes I cannot block on accident. You are allowed measuring devices at a time, so that should be enough to really get wonky
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Post by phantomsig on Jun 28, 2018 4:18:27 GMT
Indeed! Xadmar's video (www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYYNsEQYpIU) was amazing. even better then pulling your own model.
I've lined up an Asphysxious3 Slayer Spam Proxy list game tonight for practice. Wurmwood seems a little badly placed for it, but i'd like to give it a shot.
Carapace does not work against stranglehold, so there is a better chance there to do some work. Depends on the scenario and terrain, but i am hoping that the center slayers being useless if strangleheld, and the flanking slayers not in range. The more slayers die, the less i need to stranglehold?
Intending to counterfeat his feat, as well as using Arc nodes to prevent it from collecting souls.
Thoughts? Tips? Experiences?
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Wurmwood
Jun 28, 2018 18:13:00 GMT
via mobile
Post by macdaddy on Jun 28, 2018 18:13:00 GMT
Indeed! Xadmar's video (www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYYNsEQYpIU) was amazing. even better then pulling your own model. I've lined up an Asphysxious3 Slayer Spam Proxy list game tonight for practice. Wurmwood seems a little badly placed for it, but i'd like to give it a shot. Carapace does not work against stranglehold, so there is a better chance there to do some work. Depends on the scenario and terrain, but i am hoping that the center slayers being useless if strangleheld, and the flanking slayers not in range. The more slayers die, the less i need to stranglehold? Intending to counterfeat his feat, as well as using Arc nodes to prevent it from collecting souls. Thoughts? Tips? Experiences? Its going to be rough, mobility makes things really difficult as slayers still Threat 9” just walking on your feat turn. My advice? Play cagey, pull in a slayer or 2 at a time, always project threat to force Gaspy to play safe. You should reasonably get 5 Fully Boosted stranglehold’s a Turn (2 from Wurmy 1 from each warden/megs) chip damage at range and when you commit make sure to kill at least 3/5 slayers, Feat, And stranglehold 2 of them if possible. Def 13 sucks for mat 6 wolds, I really recommend Leveraging undergrowth for this. It allows you to only need 5’s Megalith with hunters mark, enrage, and curse should kill 2 Slayers on his own (esp if you damaged them prior to sending him in) he is Pow 19 and Will be Pow 21 against the curse of shadows target. It should take a free charge and 2 Bought attacks to kill 1 slayer with no curse. Less if it took about 3-4 damage prior. That lets you stranglehold or reasonably cripple another slayer (esp if you curse it) Your feat will prevent charges, but a single slayer loaded up could kill megs if he gets likeley. Expect to lose 1-2 heavies in retaliation if you kill less than 4 slayers and fail to stranglehold any others. I would say you should plan like this: Turn 1: Go first if you can, command the board with your solid threat ranges (leverage the absurd Hellmouth threat projection the threat of it is all you need) Turn 2: Strangloehold Spam, Try to tag 3-4 jacks (at Arm 17 you should only fail once if you fully boost all 5) take pot shots with Wyrds chip damage matters, Jam and take pot shots/charges with Manikins if he lets you. Turn 3: Let him feat first, if you Feat first it gets harder unless he gives you a really easy alpha before he feats. Save your feat for your all in turn. If you can get to or kill 3-5 slayers go for it regardless, most likeley you will be fraying this Turn or turn 2. Turn 4: He has probably killed megs and possibly another heavy. But he should only have 4-5 slayers left. Keep steangleholding killing what you can and stalling. My biggest recommendation is to push scenario and force him to contest. It lets you cheat trades easier. It’s a really bad match up for Wurmwood honestly. Mobility sucks. Honestly, your pair should cover match ups like this. Play Bradigus, Una2, or kaya3. All of which will obliterate the slayer list and can play into infantry Spam enough to be a solid Cryx drop.
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Post by phantomsig on Jun 29, 2018 2:15:11 GMT
Thanks macdaddy. Mobility really sucked, the worst part was that it gave Pathfinder..... Didn't see your advice until this morning unfortunately (I left it a bit late to post the advice). Notes: * Going second sucks, I had slayers in my face on my first turn. * Deploying Wurmwood at the furthest distance was a mistake. He was 5" away from slayers... I had to dark path him back and teleport the stones, costing me fury (which could have been a stranglehold) * I should have feated turn 1 too. Though your advice to feat second was my initial thought too * Worldwyrds should have been used to take out the solos and arc nodes as they were not affected by carapace. Though they could chip at a cursed slayer, Def 13 on the slayers was the biggest issue * Like you said, all strangleholds should have been boosted. My mistake. 6s are just so tempting * Stone spray from the wayfarer and the stoneshapers was the most potent attack i had... * I used the mannikins to block slayers, but my sentry stones were both in walking distance behind a forest.. What would my Bradigus build look like to scare this away?
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Post by newangel on Jun 29, 2018 14:02:56 GMT
If you are looking at Brad as your pair I'd recommend taking Woldwatchers and Woldwights. Both of these under max synergy and Earth's Power hit hard enough to dent Slayers quite heavily without having to commit your heavies. The feat gives you breathing room since your opponent probably won't want to give you a solid alpha. Note that the threat of the feat in this case is more damaging than the feat itself...it stops you being bullied around. Try and save it for a really explosive turn since once it's popped you will be out-threat for the rest of the game.
Sending in a single fully loaded Slayer into a Woldwatcher is kind of futile...On average dice it takes 17 points of damage. Not healthy, but probably fully functioning after the theme benefit kicks in. It's pretty easy to deal with the heavy at that point, back up the damaged guy and start repairs. If your opponent sends in 2 then that's a trade that you can make. Dent stuff up with the expendable lights and then go to town with a max synergy heavy and take 2 heavies off the table. Just be aware of your placement since you can get outmaneuvered and you can't afford to lose your heavies early...They need to keep taking 2 heavies for 1 light early game.
I do have some concerns with the match-up, but it's kind of hard to explain. It feels like a real piece trading game with superior positioning being the main component.
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Post by newangel on Jun 29, 2018 14:16:54 GMT
I also just realized I didn't actually give a list. Here's my current build:
Bradigus -Wold Guardian -Wold Guardian -Woldwatcher x4 -Woldwight x4
3x Stoneshaper 2x Wayfarer 2x Gallows Grove Gobber Tinker
Shifting Stones Shifting Stones
I've had a lot of success with it. Now that the new scenarios are out that may change (had some practice into Mirage today using Baldur2 and Wurmwood). Mirage especially seems extremely live. Being able to take board space quickly and hold it will be a huge thing.
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