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Post by Cookielol on Feb 11, 2018 19:34:02 GMT
So in general, I feel Grymkin are really slow. Slow enough that if I go second, my opponent is at the "53 yard line" before I can even reach the "45 yard line" on the board. I always struggle on turn who because I can stay out of threat ranges and give them the zones optimal areas then trickle in and lose the models that trickle in (also making it easier for him to clear and score) as the game goes in. Or I can run everything I can in and keep running in and give them the alpha, then retaliate with my battered down army and then allow them to clean up the turn after leaving me with little. This is purely from my experiences/perspective but I dont know how to handle Turn 2-3 as I never get the alpha, and never can get up the board and into position before they can setup shop so to speak.
Thoughts? How do you handle things?
EDIT - This general feeling is regardless of Theme/Deployment of 1st or 2nd.
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Post by beaker on Feb 11, 2018 23:23:29 GMT
Good question, i normally have one arcana i will look at for turn 2-3 so against gun line its the stealth one, slowish ones i pop -2 speed if i can clip a good amount of their force.
The main one is the 4inc aoe since it can stuff up a units charges or can block los to things coming in.
The other thing comes down to trading models i am happy to lose dreads if they draw in more then their points worth or if they can run to tie things up.
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Post by Cookielol on Feb 12, 2018 5:26:48 GMT
Good question, i normally have one arcana i will look at for turn 2-3 so against gun line its the stealth one, slowish ones i pop -2 speed if i can clip a good amount of their force. The main one is the 4inc aoe since it can stuff up a units charges or can block los to things coming in. The other thing comes down to trading models i am happy to lose dreads if they draw in more then their points worth or if they can run to tie things up. Yeah, I just feel at that point your putting your casters ahead of your SPD 5 beasts/Units or too near the front lines in hopes of covering enough of your army with an arcana like that. Your very much so right, but im still in that jam of "what to do" when it seems every time i field an army, im always struggling to react and get up the board. |
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Post by trollsareblue on Feb 12, 2018 6:53:42 GMT
Don't react, make your opponent react to you. Look at how they are deployed, think about how to use scenario elements to make them engage on your terms. Be willing to sacrifice pieces in order to get in the best possible position. Screen important stuff and use terrain.
Grymkin have a number of answers to fast armies. Ambush with Murder Crows, plop trees where they can contest or score, use a stream of Cask Imps from Mad Caps to contest, run Gorehounds into annoying places, toe Swarms into zones. You might not think Dread Rots are fast, but they are fast enough if they run every turn. Even if they only act as a speed bump, it still gives the rest of your army enough time to position.
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Post by Cookielol on Feb 12, 2018 8:03:48 GMT
Don't react, make your opponent react to you. Look at how they are deployed, think about how to use scenario elements to make them engage on your terms. Be willing to sacrifice pieces in order to get in the best possible position. Screen important stuff and use terrain. Grymkin have a number of answers to fast armies. Ambush with Murder Crows, plop trees where they can contest or score, use a stream of Cask Imps from Mad Caps to contest, run Gorehounds into annoying places, toe Swarms into zones. You might not think Dread Rots are fast, but they are fast enough if they run every turn. Even if they only act as a speed bump, it still gives the rest of your army enough time to position. Thank You. Reading this..I think alot has to do with my Meta. Its extremely helpful yet very competitive. So much that I feel a Double DM pairing is my only choice. Have yet to figure out a Good BiTN. One example is on Friday I dropped Heretic (DM) into Jaga-Jaga. He had two units of croaks, Two Vaults, and Two Spitters and support. His turn two he dropped oil on a Cage Rager, S&M, & Death Knell and removed them off the table. (Again he was super fast coming up the table, and I couldnt get to the zones before he could.) I hit back with charging Rattlers and they took out a half a unit each (High defense is a little tough to chew through.) Then he proceeded to clean up everything that "Jammed" and well he passed to me. At that point I looked at the board and explained I could contest for one more turn with the little I had before I recleared the zones and won. All this again, because I feel Grymkin is slow and cant handle gunlines (especially with Eyeless sight on vaults.) This is from my perspective and we did say that the Stealth Arcana could have helped and me keeping the DK a little further back but the issue was I couldnt get to the zones without losing significant pieces and on a low model count list like DM its tough to deal with things like this. |
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Post by trollsareblue on Feb 12, 2018 14:11:00 GMT
This is my standard Bump list. It can deal with just about anything, other than a list that puts out 6+ heavy beasts/jacks. Even then, if you focus down stuff around the zones or flags you are trying to score, you can still get wins.
Grymkin Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Bump in the Night
(Heretic 1) The Heretic [+28]
- Cage Rager [14]
- Crabbits (2) [7]
- Rattler [8]
- Rattler [8]
Lord Longfellow [0(6)]
Dread Rots (max) [12]
Dread Rots (max) [12]
Hollowmen (max) [13]
- Lantern Man [0(3)]
Hollowmen (max) [13]
- Lantern Man [0(3)]
Murder Crows [9]
Twilight Sisters [7]
I'm no pro, but I'm 12-0 in local Steamrollers with Grymkin, and haven't actually lost a game with them yet. If you think you'll have problems hitting stuff, consider using Fortune's Path. The +1 doesn't seem like much, but effective MAT 7 Rattlers are pretty ridiculous
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Post by Cookielol on Feb 13, 2018 5:50:45 GMT
This is my standard Bump list. It can deal with just about anything, other than a list that puts out 6+ heavy beasts/jacks. Even then, if you focus down stuff around the zones or flags you are trying to score, you can still get wins. Grymkin Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Bump in the Night (Heretic 1) The Heretic [+28] - Cage Rager [14] - Crabbits (2) [7] - Rattler [8] - Rattler [8] Lord Longfellow [0(6)] Dread Rots (max) [12] Dread Rots (max) [12] Hollowmen (max) [13] - Lantern Man [0(3)] Hollowmen (max) [13] - Lantern Man [0(3)] Murder Crows [9] Twilight Sisters [7] I'm no pro, but I'm 12-0 in local Steamrollers with Grymkin, and haven't actually lost a game with them yet. If you think you'll have problems hitting stuff, consider using Fortune's Path. The +1 doesn't seem like much, but effective MAT 7 Rattlers are pretty ridiculous So whats your First and second turn like? How do you use the Crows? Ive ran a similar list with a different battlegroup and had a little success. I even had a modified version with three full units of Rots charging in. I feel the list would swarm but struggle on cracking heavies that are hiding in the middle/back field. Thoughts? I own everything basically less OW3, a second Frightmare, and a second unit of crows/Neigh slayers. |
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760 
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Post by unded on Feb 13, 2018 9:13:40 GMT
If you want something a little more firgiving than Trollsareblue's list, I highly recommend playing Bump with a unit of piggies and a death knell.
The basic idea is that you absolutely will lose models early on, but that gets the corpse train rolling and allows you to both stick around later and to hit harder by feeding corpses to Skinny(ies).
with the recursion in the list (twilight, hollow men) you can recover from the alpha you give away as long as you don't feed your whole army, and then fight on your own terms.
-und_ed
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Post by trollsareblue on Feb 13, 2018 14:11:28 GMT
This is my standard Bump list. It can deal with just about anything, other than a list that puts out 6+ heavy beasts/jacks. Even then, if you focus down stuff around the zones or flags you are trying to score, you can still get wins. Grymkin Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Bump in the Night (Heretic 1) The Heretic [+28] - Cage Rager [14] - Crabbits (2) [7] - Rattler [8] - Rattler [8] Lord Longfellow [0(6)] Dread Rots (max) [12] Dread Rots (max) [12] Hollowmen (max) [13] - Lantern Man [0(3)] Hollowmen (max) [13] - Lantern Man [0(3)] Murder Crows [9] Twilight Sisters [7] I'm no pro, but I'm 12-0 in local Steamrollers with Grymkin, and haven't actually lost a game with them yet. If you think you'll have problems hitting stuff, consider using Fortune's Path. The +1 doesn't seem like much, but effective MAT 7 Rattlers are pretty ridiculous So whats your First and second turn like? How do you use the Crows? Ive ran a similar list with a different battlegroup and had a little success. I even had a modified version with three full units of Rots charging in. I feel the list would swarm but struggle on cracking heavies that are hiding in the middle/back field. Thoughts? I own everything basically less OW3, a second Frightmare, and a second unit of crows/Neigh slayers. First turn is pretty much run everything. Get as far up the table as possible. Second turn is moving Dread Rots into places to annoy your opponent. They don't have to kill everything, or get the charge. A unit of Dread Rots is pretty good for gumming up a flank. CRA stuff that gets free, and look for lanes to counter with Rattlers, more Dread Rots, or the Cage Rager. The most important thing with the list is knowing when to pop Reckoning. Make sure you are going to be able to get enough attacks to clear whatever triggered it so you can move the bonus around. Don't get suckered into using it too early. If people want to keep their heavies back, let them. They'll have to advance eventually or lose on scenario. Also, don't expect to take down every heavy in one round. The list is attrition-based, not alpha-based. For Murder Crows, I frequently use their prey ability to mess with my opponent's head. If you put prey on something, lots of people get paranoid about it and end up not using that unit/model as effectively as they otherwise might. The Crows also provide scenario presence, and divert enemy resources. Expect them to die. Don't forget about what the Heretic offers, either. You can prevent shield wall and press forward with Rebuke, you can strip upkeeps, you can deny or complicate charge lanes with Wall of Fire. |
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Post by Cookielol on Feb 14, 2018 18:55:22 GMT
So whats your First and second turn like? How do you use the Crows? Ive ran a similar list with a different battlegroup and had a little success. I even had a modified version with three full units of Rots charging in. I feel the list would swarm but struggle on cracking heavies that are hiding in the middle/back field. Thoughts? I own everything basically less OW3, a second Frightmare, and a second unit of crows/Neigh slayers. First turn is pretty much run everything. Get as far up the table as possible. Second turn is moving Dread Rots into places to annoy your opponent. They don't have to kill everything, or get the charge. A unit of Dread Rots is pretty good for gumming up a flank. CRA stuff that gets free, and look for lanes to counter with Rattlers, more Dread Rots, or the Cage Rager. The most important thing with the list is knowing when to pop Reckoning. Make sure you are going to be able to get enough attacks to clear whatever triggered it so you can move the bonus around. Don't get suckered into using it too early. If people want to keep their heavies back, let them. They'll have to advance eventually or lose on scenario. Also, don't expect to take down every heavy in one round. The list is attrition-based, not alpha-based. For Murder Crows, I frequently use their prey ability to mess with my opponent's head. If you put prey on something, lots of people get paranoid about it and end up not using that unit/model as effectively as they otherwise might. The Crows also provide scenario presence, and divert enemy resources. Expect them to die. Don't forget about what the Heretic offers, either. You can prevent shield wall and press forward with Rebuke, you can strip upkeeps, you can deny or complicate charge lanes with Wall of Fire. I really do like the Heretic in DM with Rattlers as an Anti-Infantry Drop (as if you lose on list chicken, it can still have a "fighting" chance against beast/jack spam.") That being said, what would be a good pairing as a Anti-Beast/Jack list? I think dreamer can do decent?? As for BiTN I really want to give it a go but im terribly worried about dropping that list into a Gunline or or Armor Spam/Circle w/hellmouth. Just random thoughts now. |
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Post by trollsareblue on Feb 14, 2018 19:26:28 GMT
Dreamer is very good for DM lists. Gunline lists aren't great in SR2017, and even if they shoot you up some, they still have to advance to score.
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