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Post by smoothcriminal on Feb 14, 2018 20:30:50 GMT
Spriggan will be so good in V1 rocket list. Pop feat, charge veeery far, then light up something stealthed/clouded and shoot it. Basically cloudwalls and stealth isn't a counter tech against it anymore which makes it droppable into like 90% of the meta.
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Post by hocestbellum on Feb 14, 2018 21:29:07 GMT
Spriggan will be so good in V1 rocket list. Pop feat, charge veeery far, then light up something stealthed/clouded and shoot it. Basically cloudwalls and stealth isn't a counter tech against it anymore which makes it droppable into like 90% of the meta For a moment I thought you meant 90% of your meta ran Stealth and/or clouds. I r stoopid. I'm not personally convinced; you've added a grand total of 3" to the Flare range with Dual Attack, from 18" to 21". Both of those ranges are easily enough to de-stealth choice targets, and yet, despite this tech existing since before the beginning of time, there were no Spriggans in Vlad lists at the WTC, and only one at the ATC. But we will see! The points shake-up will certainly change the jack loadouts in those lists, so who knows?
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Feb 14, 2018 21:45:59 GMT
Spriggan will be so good in V1 rocket list. Pop feat, charge veeery far, then light up something stealthed/clouded and shoot it. Basically cloudwalls and stealth isn't a counter tech against it anymore which makes it droppable into like 90% of the meta I'm not personally convinced; you've added a grand total of 3" to the Flare range with Dual Attack, from 18" to 21". Both of those ranges are easily enough to de-stealth choice targets, and yet, despite this tech existing since before the beginning of time, there were no Spriggans in Vlad lists at the WTC, and only one at the ATC. I don't think that the range is the key thing, though that does help I think that the fact that you now no longer have to commit your Spriggan to either removing stealth or melee combat is the bigger thing. Most complaints that I heard were that the Spriggan could only do one or the other and this change means that it can do both. It also means that running to engage it will not be quite so effective.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Feb 14, 2018 22:37:57 GMT
I'm not personally convinced; you've added a grand total of 3" to the Flare range with Dual Attack, from 18" to 21". Both of those ranges are easily enough to de-stealth choice targets, and yet, despite this tech existing since before the beginning of time, there were no Spriggans in Vlad lists at the WTC, and only one at the ATC. I don't think that the range is the key thing, though that does help I think that the fact that you now no longer have to commit your Spriggan to either removing stealth or melee combat is the bigger thing. Most complaints that I heard were that the Spriggan could only do one or the other and this change means that it can do both. It also means that running to engage it will not be quite so effective. No my primary complaint was a real lack of effectiveness to the Spriggains Ranged stuff which clogged them with cost. And they still don't, but at least it doesn't clog them anymore. I do think the spriggain will still only see play as a specific anti-stealth tool and not much else. Its simply worse otherwise. Quickly disabled, not that hard hitting, and lacking any sort of solid ranged presence.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Feb 14, 2018 23:41:45 GMT
Still not sold on the Rager, mostly because I don't play themes so I'll just take a Bokur or Skirova. Which I think takes our stable of 'actively a poor choice' Jacks down to 3: 1) Decimator, because it's worse than the Destroyer 2) Demolisher, because it's worse than the Devastator 3) Spriggan, because it's only good for Stealth removal, and there are better options in any other situation The Rager is a cheap jack with 3 initials at MAT 6 that all benefit from Melee buffs because of the way Point Blank works, the Shield Guard is a nice bonus at this moment. I love the new points on the Decimator because it's the only Jack that can make use of Old Witch's_2 Power Magnifier ability every turn Also, I'm really liking the Spriggan because he gets 4 initials now! Seems like a pretty solid jack for Irusk_2 and FFE.
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Post by sand20go on Feb 14, 2018 23:45:13 GMT
Still not sold on the Rager, mostly because I don't play themes so I'll just take a Bokur or Skirova. Which I think takes our stable of 'actively a poor choice' Jacks down to 3: 1) Decimator, because it's worse than the Destroyer 2) Demolisher, because it's worse than the Devastator 3) Spriggan, because it's only good for Stealth removal, and there are better options in any other situation The Rager is a cheap jack with 3 initials at MAT 6 that all benefit from Melee buffs because of the way Point Blank works, the Shield Guard is a nice bonus at this moment. I love the new points on the Decimator because it's the only Jack that can make use of Old Witch's_2 Power Amplifier ability every turn Also, I'm really liking the Spriggan now because he gets 4 initials now! Seems like a pretty solid jack for Irusk_2 and FFE. Power Amp. is a trap said a whole bunch of Brigards that couldn't have shot with -5 rng ;-)
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Feb 14, 2018 23:51:30 GMT
The Rager is a cheap jack with 3 initials at MAT 6 that all benefit from Melee buffs because of the way Point Blank works, the Shield Guard is a nice bonus at this moment. I love the new points on the Decimator because it's the only Jack that can make use of Old Witch's_2 Power Amplifier ability every turn Also, I'm really liking the Spriggan now because he gets 4 initials now! Seems like a pretty solid jack for Irusk_2 and FFE. Power Amp. is a trap said a whole bunch of Brigards that couldn't have shot with -5 rng ;-) You can Windstorm and Power Magnify late game without a problem
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Post by smoothcriminal on Feb 15, 2018 9:19:23 GMT
After some time considering mow theme I think the key that makes or breaks it is the attack volume. With 1x attack per model 60 pt of mows dishes out whopping amount of 18 attacks, slightly less than a 13pt pirate unit. The only unit where this makes sense is shockies since they are tanks choosing between assaulting with 2 attacks or tanking with 1. Also there's the problem of mows having unelite rat 5 and mat 7 (actually same to what pirates have due to gang, think about this a little), that takes the attack volume problem to the extreme. 10 man units can use cma/cra to get around rat/mat, but mows can't, output of 6 man unit drops tremendously to the point of it being completely useless if you start doing 2man cras/cmas with it, and if you don't cra/cma you start missing a lot, it's a lose lose situation.
Mows (and every other heavy infantry model) needs to have 2 attacks baseline to be viable to compensate for reduced attack volume compared to 10 man units. Their survivability doesn't make up for loss of attack volume in a game where you win through spending resources on attack buffs. Sure, it can have some condition, like dual shot on bombers or assault on shockies, but not a once per game dual shot minifeat. OR they need elite rat 7/mat 8 stats, maybe through a veteran or battleplan buff, which allows to not do cra/cma and still hit reliably.
Crutch models like Supressor or Chariot can be introduced to fix this issue, but it won't actually fix anything, people will just take those models, maybe 1 tanky shock unit, and leave everything else on a shelf. 60pt of actual mows should be playable on their own for the theme to work.
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Post by hocestbellum on Feb 15, 2018 10:44:01 GMT
I agree with you to some extent.
I don't care that a 20 point unit of Shocktroopers only has 6 attacks. I take them because they can take the entire damage output of an enraged Gladiator to the face. The unit will be smaller, but still there, still attacking, still being annoying.
There was a post in the CID that postulated that medium bases should have double the durability or double the offensive power of a small model half the price. It's a bit simplistic, but I think there's a grain of truth. Shocktroopers are easily more than twice as durable compared to Iron Fangs, but they've only got a little over half the damage output.
Demo Corps, by contrast, do not have the damage output of two Iron Fangs. In terms of direct numbers, a single Demo Corps will do more damage than two Iron Fangs to any target ARM18 or higher. But charging messes with the maths. Iron Fangs do more damage up to ARM21. And because of the difference in stats, Iron Fangs are more likely to charge. Because of numbers and DEF they are more likely to survive a charge. If two Iron Fangs charge two Iron Fangs, there's a 1/3 chance at least one will survive. If the same 2 charge a Demo Corps the chance is less than 5%.
So Demo Corps are stuck in a terrible place where they are not significantly more durable than Iron Fangs and they do not do much more damage. Given that their schtick is 'damage', I would have no objections to them getting another attack to increase their damage output.
Bombadiers seem okay-ish now? They shouldn't be taking charges, they're semi-resilient to shooting... but their problem is accuracy. Technically, as they're blast weapons it's not a problem, but AoE3 is really puny. RNG12, I feel, did more to fix them than the entire UA kit, and if they were AoE4 I would honestly consider taking them outside of Armoured Korps (which is surely the aim, balance wise?). Even if AoE4 came at the cost of the Dual Shot on the UA. I don't care about attack volume on them, either.
The Tankers and the Assault Chariot, to me, are how support in Khador should be done. The Suppression Tanker and the Chariot are good enough to take on their own if you want to shoot some fools. Doesn't have to be in AK.
The Kovnik is a crutch. He has no use unless MoW are present, and if they are present he will do one thing for a couple of turns, and then maybe catch up to the fight a couple of turns later. At least Joe can do more than one thing.
Tl;dr:
- Attack Volume is only really an issue on the Demo Corps, whose thing is 'attacking' - Suppression Tanker and Assault Chariot are not crutches, as they are viable outside of AK. It's more that the AK lists can need troop clearing, and they can provide (along with bombadiers) - The Kovnik is a crutch.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Feb 15, 2018 10:45:59 GMT
As a not-Khador player, I think that duel attack fits the Spriggan nicely, how does everyone else feel about it? Fine, as long as they don't start jacking up the pow/range/RAT. It's a good utility addition that serves a unique and very focused purpose with the targeting flare. agreed, placing the Flare is fine, the rat 4 pow 5 blast is so mopey it's not worth worrying about
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