germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Jan 22, 2018 23:53:04 GMT
After her changes... reckon she'll see board time?
Some guys on the FB group considered all the characters and flavour to suit in BI...
And, more generally... thoughts on the January errata?
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Post by darkshroud on Jan 23, 2018 2:00:30 GMT
yeps. i want to get her in a list.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
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Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Jan 23, 2018 2:34:21 GMT
Deneghra2’s extremely good now. Put her in Black Industries with Deathjack, Nightmare, and another Heavy. Unlike our Slayer Spam BI casters, Deneghra2 wants a smaller Battlegroup with a lot of High Quality Heavies. My current build being: conflictchamber.com/#c4201b_-0U0B1w191x1f1u0te23b2k2BbFkjCryx Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Black Industries !!! Your army contains a CID entry. (Deneghra 2) Wraith Witch Deneghra [+28] - Deathjack [23] - Deathripper [6] - Nightmare [18] - Nightwretch [0(7)] - Seether [13] - The Withershadow Combine [9] Aiakos, Scourge of the Meredius [4] - Scavenger [0(7)] Machine Wraith [2] Warwitch Siren [4] Wrong Eye [17] Black Ogrun Iron Mongers [7] As for the rest of what was shown, still not a fan of what happened to Bloodwitches. Without RFP or Entropic Aura I see no real reason to take them anymore. Ragman is a better source of Dark Shroud, Raiders can pray Overtake to do better Infantry clearing shenanigans, and if I really need Grievous Wounds I can always take Stalkers. Blood Mist & Entropic Aura were the reasons I took them. Without those & the loss of the Pathfinder buff, meh, pass. Timtheenchanter actually getting his Terminus buff amused me Ghost Fleet & Deneghra1 are going on the shelf. Ghost Fleet doesn’t look very compelling anymore next to Slaughter Fleet, Dark Host, Black Industries & Scourge, and especially not when people are bringing tools to deal with it. Deneghra1 doesn’t look very compelling anymore next to Asphyxious1. Nearly all of my Deneghra1 lists now look better run by Asphyxious1. Egregore nerf should have happened a year and a half ago, it’s about time. Coven feat nerf is baffling, and I wished they’d have just addressed the actual problem which was how they interacted with multiple scoring in the SR packet, but whatever. I still hate this caster. I’m still probably not playing a Corruptor. Kharybdis is now playable so yay. Not sure where I actually want him yet, but he’s not a write off anymore. Black Ogrun & Bloodgorger buffs mean Slaughter Fleet is now really good as is even without all the new releases. All in all I’m happy sacrificing Deneghra1 for new Deneghra2, Slaughter Fleet excites me, Bloodwitches & the state of Ghost Fleet sadden me.
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Post by darkshroud on Jan 23, 2018 2:55:55 GMT
Deneghra2’s extremely good now. Put her in Black Industries with Deathjack, Nightmare, and another Heavy. Unlike our Slayer Spam BI casters, Deneghra2 wants a smaller Battlegroup with a lot of High Quality Heavies. My current build being: As for the rest of what was shown, still not a fan of what happened to Bloodwitches. Without RFP or Entropic Aura I see no real reason to take them anymore. Ragman is a better source of Dark Shroud, Raiders can pray Overtake to do better Infantry clearing shenanigans, and if I really need Grievous Wounds I can always take Stalkers. Blood Mist & Entropic Aura were the reasons I took them. Without those & the loss of the Pathfinder buff, meh, pass. Timtheenchanter actually getting his Terminus buff amused me Ghost Fleet & Deneghra1 are going on the shelf. Ghost Fleet doesn’t look very compelling anymore next to Slaughter Fleet, Dark Host, Black Industries & Scourge, and especially not when people are bringing tools to deal with it. Deneghra1 doesn’t look very compelling anymore next to Asphyxious1. Nearly all of my Deneghra1 lists now look better run by Asphyxious1. Egregore nerf should have happened a year and a half ago, it’s about time. Coven feat nerf is baffling, and I wished they’d have just addressed the actual problem which was how they interacted with multiple scoring in the SR packet, but whatever. I still hate this caster. I’m still probably not playing a Corruptor. Kharybdis is now playable so yay. Not sure where I actually want him yet, but he’s not a write off anymore. Black Ogrun & Bloodgorger buffs mean Slaughter Fleet is now really good as is even without all the new releases. All in all I’m happy sacrificing Deneghra1 for new Deneghra2, Slaughter Fleet excites me, Bloodwitches & the state of Ghost Fleet sadden me. ghost fleet needed something. not sure why we need both witches and raiders. what do each do that the other doesnt? i agree about coven. i never liked them. but maybe bc i never understood them. guess i need to play more to understand why blook gorgers are good. it does suck that we have too many choices that we have to pick what we want to play. (almost not sarcasm) we have a lot of good stuff.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Jan 23, 2018 4:57:19 GMT
Deneghra2’s extremely good now. Put her in Black Industries with Deathjack, Nightmare, and another Heavy. Unlike our Slayer Spam BI casters, Deneghra2 wants a smaller Battlegroup with a lot of High Quality Heavies. My current build being: As for the rest of what was shown, still not a fan of what happened to Bloodwitches. Without RFP or Entropic Aura I see no real reason to take them anymore. Ragman is a better source of Dark Shroud, Raiders can pray Overtake to do better Infantry clearing shenanigans, and if I really need Grievous Wounds I can always take Stalkers. Blood Mist & Entropic Aura were the reasons I took them. Without those & the loss of the Pathfinder buff, meh, pass. Timtheenchanter actually getting his Terminus buff amused me Ghost Fleet & Deneghra1 are going on the shelf. Ghost Fleet doesn’t look very compelling anymore next to Slaughter Fleet, Dark Host, Black Industries & Scourge, and especially not when people are bringing tools to deal with it. Deneghra1 doesn’t look very compelling anymore next to Asphyxious1. Nearly all of my Deneghra1 lists now look better run by Asphyxious1. Egregore nerf should have happened a year and a half ago, it’s about time. Coven feat nerf is baffling, and I wished they’d have just addressed the actual problem which was how they interacted with multiple scoring in the SR packet, but whatever. I still hate this caster. I’m still probably not playing a Corruptor. Kharybdis is now playable so yay. Not sure where I actually want him yet, but he’s not a write off anymore. Black Ogrun & Bloodgorger buffs mean Slaughter Fleet is now really good as is even without all the new releases. All in all I’m happy sacrificing Deneghra1 for new Deneghra2, Slaughter Fleet excites me, Bloodwitches & the state of Ghost Fleet sadden me. ghost fleet needed something. not sure why we need both witches and raiders. what do each do that the other doesnt? i agree about coven. i never liked them. but maybe bc i never understood them. guess i need to play more to understand why blook gorgers are good. it does suck that we have too many choices that we have to pick what we want to play. (almost not sarcasm) we have a lot of good stuff. Ghost Fleet needed the same thing Dark Host needs. The Wraith Engine to not be completely broken. When Bankey was testing Terminus Ghost Fleet in CID he just played with 27 jack points even though Terminus wasn’t in the CID so he could run his preferred battlegroup, get 3 free Solos, and bring a Wraith Engine. That’s how busted the Wraith Engine is. Dropping it from the list is so out of the question one of the best players in the world would rather drop Barathrum (widely considered to be our most cost efficient, and best character Heavy) from a list with his bonded caster than consider dropping the Engine or a free solo. With what happened to GF it’s going to join Infernal Machines in the “why am I playing this over one of the other 4 amazing themes?” tier because Dark Host runs the Engine best, and even our recursion casters like Goreshade2&3 get more mileage out of Dark Host than Ghost Fleet. Coven are amazing. I have never enjoyed a game where I’ve played them, Mk2 or Mk3. Idk what it is about this caster, but I just hate them. Bloodgorgers now eat all the infantry. Caster independent Mat 8 with Gerlak around & you now keep Berserk even if Gerlak dies are both huge. Black Ogrun now hit with a pow that’s worth considering spending 11 points on 5 bodies & 5 Attacks thanks to Gang.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Jan 23, 2018 7:17:59 GMT
Coven feat nerf really saddens me. I adore the coven, they're the reason I started Cryx.
Denny1 on the other hand can die in a fire for all I care. I blame her for the "cryx can't have nice things" state of toys, so relegating her to a shelf-sitter is fine by me (not to mention her model is hideous). Speaking of hideous models, Denny2 is really exciting now. I think I'm gonna take a break from my Grymkin to play a bit of Denny2 in industries, maybe coupled with my old flame Skarre2, queen of the useless poop in scourge. Really like the direction of Denny2, my first inclination is a list with DJ, Nightmare plus a Kraken on Aiakos. Having an incorporeal kraken just seems hilarious (if its legal - gotta quickly check up on that).
Blood witches seem interesting. Dark shroud is a really welcome addition to the army, and side step does open up some interesting shenanigans to capitalise on on both dark shroud and on gang. Lack of Pathfinder is a real problem for them though, will need to see how it plays out on the table.
Gunslingers just look swell. I already was murdering enemy infantry with a pair of gunslinger units with Skarre2 before this update, but this should really push up their value.
Couldn't care less about ogres, but maybe time will change that.
Overall more positives than negatives imo, and we still haven't seen the finalised Skarre3 rules. Job's a good 'un imo.
P.S. Ghost fleet can suck it. Suck it hard. Boring list, monobuild models, not gonna miss it.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jan 23, 2018 8:15:24 GMT
link for those not knowing what we're talking about
I agree with most of what has been said. Coven needed the ball to change, though I think their feat is kind of disappointing now, like Deller said. If you don't go first, the feat is already really hard to use and now it will be nothing more than an alpha strike feat. If your opponent is already in range: too bad. Contrary to him, I always liked them though, so I hope this nerf doesn't hit them too hard. Denny 2 is exactly how she ended in CID and she's a blast. I still can't settle on a list that I like though; Nightmare and DJ together are so damn expensive and the only theme where you can get the latter are Black Industries or Infernal Machines and who plays IM? :/ She'll take some figuring out for me, but I definitely want to play her a bunch. Like Deller I'm very amused by the fact that Tim Banky successfully completed his personal crusade though to be honest, I'm disappointed they gave into it. He was basically playing one point up just because he wanted to have his way; it was a bit childish and yet they still gave him what he wanted. Denny 1 is still very playable, but she's now just another Cryx caster that has no specific thing going for her. She's fine, but now has to compete against 20 (!) other casters for a spot in the 2 list format. Some are still worse than here I guess, so maybe only like 10, but she's not exactly interesting anymore except to stack debuffs. Corruptor is fine, but I think I will still reach for specialised jacks before going for this generalist most of the time. It's now a solid gun though, about on par with the Desecrator, for the same points and more versatility. Kharybdis looks amazing, I was happy with how he was turning out in the CID, as a "good enough" option compared to the expensive disappointment that he used to be. Now he's actually very well tuned for his price tag at a good MAT, premium RAT and solid utility. You can now actually put down the cloud before running to some other source of Concealment to trigger Prowl, as well as all the other shenanigans. I was one of the people advocating him getting into SFR and I'm glad they did, so he can now see some table time without his mediocre caster in tow. I wasn't a fan of Barathrum in SFR, I mean I was, because it was just what my Skarre 2 list needed, but it didn't make any sense. To me, he makes even less sense in the Satyxis theme though, he doesn't appear to have any thematic tie to them at all, except that he's Terminus's jack and in some way Terminus commands the Satyxis. I understand that they didn't want 2 powerful characters in the same theme, but maybe Barathrum would've been better off in SFR and Kharybdis with the Satyxis, both have chain weapons and are nautically themed. But I'll just take what I can get, maybe a good character is just what Asphyxious 3 needed to start playing combined arms in this theme. I think Black Ogrun might be slightly too cheap for their hitting power, though I guess they are still fragile and looking at how the other medium based infantry is shaping up, I guess they're fine in comparison. I'm glad that you're all happy to see the Ghost Fleet nerfed out of existence, but I'm saddened by it. It was a pretty cool theme that now does nothing except come back and have lots of Ghost Shot. The pistols might be able to attrition slightly against other light infantry, but at RAT 4/5 and RNG 8 they're not going to accomplish much and the POW 11 in melee doesn't kill enough infantry and doesn't scratch a proper brick. It will be an attrition army that will constantly be looking to assassinate instead of actually attritioning. Many people bought into it and I actually like the models and feel of the theme; it's sad that it will most likely never see competitive play again. Deller : the Wraith Engine was in all Ghost Fleet lists because it brought the much needed Dark Shroud and it's great at contesting things, which I think is a fine role for it and it doesn't do much else for 15 points. What I don't understand is how they could allow it to count for points towards free models in Dark Host, this is what truly enables the skew. I'm fine with the changes to Raiders and the theme even though the new theme benefit doesn't actually do much. Bit confused that they dropped the command of the Sea Witch, especially since the Hag got to stay though. I'm disappointed that they went with the changes to the Blood Witches. Dark Shroud is a nice addition to the theme, but apart from that, I see little reason to take Blood Witches anymore. Grievous wounds is neat, but enough to build your army for it? What their role really was was RFP'er that had some extra utility when you needed it, now they lost that, especially since the Gunslingers also lost it. I get why they did it though, seeing as Blood Mist basically did nothing else than RFP, because the Witch would always be toeing the cloud and thus not get another from it (no concealment and no LoS blocking), but I wish they added RFP to Death Strike then. Gunslingers are great, maybe a bit too good now, especially since their point cost stayed intact. At least they are still fragile as hell. I think with the other changes, Gerlak could've stayed at 7, though I don't think that's something I would every pay for a pure murder solo like this. In the end it doesn't matter, because he's always free and he's really solid now. I kind of would've wished the Bloodgorgers got something to hit slightly harder, like Righteous Vengeance or combo-strike so they could diversify a bit. Now they are solidly place in their anti-infantry role, which I suppose is also fine. unded As far as I know, there is nothing preventing a colossal from getting Incorporeal except that, until now, there was no source of it. EDIT: Deller proved me wrong, that'll show me to check my facts. Colossal can never gain Advanced Deployment, Incorporeal or Stealth. PS: germanicus perhaps you could change the title to indicate that this is the general errata thread? I almost made a new one because I only saw Denny 2 on the index page.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Jan 23, 2018 8:28:56 GMT
Having an incorporeal kraken just seems hilarious (if its legal - gotta quickly check up on that). Sorry but it doesn’t, Colossals can never gain Stealth or Incorporeal.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Jan 23, 2018 8:46:45 GMT
I thought that might be the case... curses
Back to the drawing board then. It's gonna be a fun drawing board.
-und_ed
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Post by tiberius on Jan 23, 2018 13:11:52 GMT
Deneghra 2 does look really solid and I am going to have to get her on the table to see how she does. Incorporeal is a really strong rule and being able to turn any 6 guys incorporeal is just an assassination waiting to happen. Slaughter Fleet Raiders comes to mind with that with the gang fighter on the jacks. Just charge on through the lines with an enabler and a couple of jacks and eat whatever is your target. Really strong. I also like breath stealer.
Deneghra 1, I will miss Scourge. Aside from that, the changes don't really do much for or against my opinion of her. For me it was always a straight numbers game with the debuffs and the debuffs are pretty much the same. Influence got cheaper, but I am still not casting it.
Corruptor dropping to 14 points. that will make me want to play it a lot more. 16 points was way too expensive but 14 points is just right.
I really like what they did with Kharybdis. Gun fighter is probably all it needed, but fixing the cloud *action issue and giving it more RAT, is all great. The point drop was also unexpected. All making it really good.
Two things needed to happen to the witch coven, and they "fixed" the wrong thing. The feat was fine as is, the nerf was unnecessary. They needed to make it so that only one witch could be the scoring model, but I guess that would be a wall of specialized text for them just for something that is only in competitive play anyhow. They did fix the transfer damage and spend a focus for each witch to soak damage problem. That was the only thing that changed with them that I did agree with.
Satyxis Raider changes don't change how I play them at all. The changes to the blood witches doesn't really change how I play them either. I don't mind the addition of grievous wounds and losing entropic aura. Though now they cannot stop gargantuans and colossal from getting repaired/healed. Not that they should be able to do that.
The gun slingers gaining a RAT and different abilities. I am fine with it, it doesn't change what they do for me. They are still low pow guns that help shoot up knocked down targets. Heart seeker is nice though.
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Asmoridin
Junior Strategist
Getting back into the game after too long a hiatus!
Posts: 323
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Post by Asmoridin on Jan 23, 2018 15:03:39 GMT
I echo disappointment about the changes to the Coven's feat. The biggest problem I always hear about is the way they score, and nothing they've done has changed that one bit. So is Ghost Fleet actually unplayable? None of the new releases/models will keep it somewhat effective? I haven't really been following the CID all that carefully
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jan 23, 2018 16:13:04 GMT
I echo disappointment about the changes to the Coven's feat. The biggest problem I always hear about is the way they score, and nothing they've done has changed that one bit. So is Ghost Fleet actually unplayable? None of the new releases/models will keep it somewhat effective? I haven't really been following the CID all that carefully The only "new" things they're getting is Misery Cages, which are nifty but also in other themes and Agrimony which is kind of lack luster because while we were testing her, the theme was still really good even without her.
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Post by tiberius on Jan 23, 2018 16:51:25 GMT
I wouldn't say that Ghost Fleet is unplayable. It will have good and bad matchups. If you are not facing magic weapons or remove from play abilities, you can still run a really mean scenario/attrition group and with all the ghost shot and ranged attributes of the list, always scare on assassination. Its just that now some of our living pirate themes have gotten boosts and are really strong right now. So its not that ghost fleet is bad per se, its that Scourge and Slaughter Fleet Raiders are good, as is black industries that would pair well with any of them. When you have 6 choices and can only pick two, there will always be losers.
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Asmoridin
Junior Strategist
Getting back into the game after too long a hiatus!
Posts: 323
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Post by Asmoridin on Jan 23, 2018 19:07:56 GMT
Thanks!
I don't need it to be top tier, personally- if it's playable and *can* win, that's good enough for me to at least put such a list together for now.
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Post by theghost on Jan 24, 2018 7:29:34 GMT
I echo disappointment about the changes to the Coven's feat. The biggest problem I always hear about is the way they score, and nothing they've done has changed that one bit. So is Ghost Fleet actually unplayable? None of the new releases/models will keep it somewhat effective? I haven't really been following the CID all that carefully The only "new" things they're getting is Misery Cages, which are nifty but also in other themes and Agrimony which is kind of lack luster because while we were testing her, the theme was still really good even without her. Actually I believe the changes to their focus ruling makes it much more risky and easier to punish wiches that spread out.
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