germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358 
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Post by germanicus on Jan 25, 2018 19:34:43 GMT
Considering that, for 13 points more than that you can still get two covering fire templates, as well as two Defender guns, a lightning pod, and a legit melee (and 1 point higher armor), the Cyclones with their POW14 fists seem very underwhelming. I don't know that giving each one 2 covering fire templates is the answer, but that model needs a re-working. Oh, I agree... three Cyclones or a Stormwall, along with the Cygnar usual suspects, and it's often a no-brainer of a choice. While you express uncertainty regarding the 2 template idea, I believe that it would draw a fair few complaints and comparisons (namely, Ret's Manticore), and with how scenarios work now, it may be considered OP. Looking at it, based on what Cygnar have available, I'd be all for ditching Covering Fire altogether, giving it a fixed ROF (then Reload with Double Strike), cost it accordingly, so that it's more focused (I think to myself that a reduction of POW can be argued either way)... *shrug* |
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Jan 25, 2018 21:48:27 GMT
Considering that, for 13 points more than that you can still get two covering fire templates, as well as two Defender guns, a lightning pod, and a legit melee (and 1 point higher armor), the Cyclones with their POW14 fists seem very underwhelming. I don't know that giving each one 2 covering fire templates is the answer, but that model needs a re-working. Oh, I agree... three Cyclones or a Stormwall, along with the Cygnar usual suspects, and it's often a no-brainer of a choice. While you express uncertainty regarding the 2 template idea, I believe that it would draw a fair few complaints and comparisons (namely, Ret's Manticore), and with how scenarios work now, it may be considered OP. Looking at it, based on what Cygnar have available, I'd be all for ditching Covering Fire altogether, giving it a fixed ROF (then Reload with Double Strike), cost it accordingly, so that it's more focused (I think to myself that a reduction of POW can be argued either way)... *shrug* Good points. I'd be happier if they kept everything the same, but gave it a rule similar to the Manticore's rule (spend a focus to gain +3 strength), or at least gave it a combo-smite special attack. As it is, it's a heavy that can't fight another heavy. Besides the utility of covering fire, there are few scenarios where taking it is better than taking a light warjack or infantry. Kara Sloane or Caine3 are really the only two warcasters I can think of that would even consider one right now. |
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Jan 25, 2018 23:47:27 GMT
Good points. I'd be happier if they kept everything the same, but gave it a rule similar to the Manticore's rule (spend a focus to gain +3 strength), or at least gave it a combo-smite special attack. As it is, it's a heavy that can't fight another heavy. Besides the utility of covering fire, there are few scenarios where taking it is better than taking a light warjack or infantry. Kara Sloane or Caine3 are really the only two warcasters I can think of that would even consider one right now. It's melee ability is where I'm a bit stumped... I think it was designed with "dealing with chaff/light to medium infantry" in mind, hence a potentially (comparatively speaking) high rate of output of mediocre shots. My first thought was to give it some method of boosting its own ability to hit since how many boosts can you apply to 4 shots? And so, yes... Kara is one of the few that can get the most out of its however many shots the dice dictate from turn to turn (Caine3 on feat, but he generally has better options to cap off his feat). As it is, the Cyclone brings no counter threat to enemy heavies, aside from kiting which doesn't really happen and it's relatively easy to pin down. I'm all for: POW 4 on his fists; Combo-Strike (I think Combo-Smite may be a bit too good, and again somewhat dilutes its core function as a ranged support jack); increase to 14pts. Straight comparison with the Manticore (leaving casters out of it... yes, it's incomplete, but I'm caffeine starved, gimme a break...!) based on above adjustment: PS 15... so far so fine 2d3 vs 1d3... the only major difference MAT/RAT 7/6 vs 6/5... the only major point of contention for some (as a Ret player, I would like RAT 6, but I do well enough as things are) Combo-Strike vs Force Generator... PS19 for one attack, PS15 for the rest or PS18 for all of them but one less attack? Eh... 30 hp vs 32 hp (inc Arcantrik Field) & SPD 5 vs SPD6... swings and roundabouts as far as this comparison is concerned, slight survivability advantage to the Manticore OK, so... so far so pro-Cyclone at the moment, but I think the key difference is the access to additional focus. At 75pts, Cygnar casters are mostly greedy buggers, and Ret casters are no different, so I feel the swing goes back to more or less even when Empower/Concentrated Power is chucked in. The vastly differing levels of access to one and Ret's monopoly on the other, I think, permit the Cyclone to be objectively superior in a vacuum. AFAIK, only Guided Fire allows you to boost every ranged attack and... only Sloan has it? Such is my uninformed opinion on this particular debate...! |
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 26, 2018 9:17:46 GMT
I have played a bit with a Cyclone in a Stryker 2 list I used to run, a 4" power 12 wall can be pretty good at keeping some infantry at bay. With Positive Charge and Ragman he could get to pow 18 on his fists, and neither of those buffs needed to be exclusive to him, they can be shared around. Also a 2 handed throw can come in handy sometimes
I could maybe see one in a Siege 2 list, Covering Fire with Razor wall could be pretty nice |
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Jan 26, 2018 9:38:51 GMT
I have played a bit with a Cyclone in a Stryker 2 list I used to run, a 4" power 12 wall can be pretty good at keeping some infantry at bay. With Positive Charge and Ragman he could get to pow 18 on his fists, and neither of those buffs needed to be exclusive to him, they can be shared around. Also a 2 handed throw can come in handy sometimes
I could maybe see one in a Siege 2 list, Covering Fire with Razor wall could be pretty nice Huh... clean forgot about Positive Charge... good point, sweet spell... *wanders off to dream about Positive Charge in Ret...* *oh, second epic Ret caster where art thou?!* |
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tanan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by tanan on Jan 26, 2018 20:19:01 GMT
As a ret player I would gladly swap Manticore for Cyclone in every possible matchup, because Cyclone is one of the best economy heavies in the game. Cyclone is a cheap gun platform that will do a lot work with minimal risk, position issues or warcaster resources. It can be fielded in every theme force and caster and doesn’t limit list building in any way.
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Post by redbaron89 on Jan 30, 2018 2:47:12 GMT
Played 2 matches the other day using the gravedigger list i posted a few days back.
Played into una 2 with 5 scarsfells, 2 units tharn ravagers and two units of bloodweavers and death wolves.
Discovered in this match up i did not have the volume of attacks to deal with his whole force despite shooting 40+ points off the board on feat turn.
Also only having sloan as a magic weapon meant i suffered vs windwall. I lost via assasination.
Second match was against a cygnar player playing kraye and like 5 heavies. On feat turn only thing left standing was a beat up centurian, dynamo, and 2 charges. I won via assasination.
Next up i want to try this:
Sloan hm wj 28
Squire free
Hunterx5 50
Cyclonex4 52
Strangeways free
Versh free
Cyclones with boosted pow 12 attack rolls will clear infantry on feat turn. 2-4 Covering fire templates blocking charge lanes from 14 inches away is in theory reaally nice. Having more focus efficiency with strangeways and squire is nice. Extra magic weapon is a nice bonus.
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Jan 30, 2018 13:40:50 GMT
As a ret player I would gladly swap Manticore for Cyclone in every possible matchup, because Cyclone is one of the best economy heavies in the game. Cyclone is a cheap gun platform that will do a lot work with minimal risk, position issues or warcaster resources. It can be fielded in every theme force and caster and doesn’t limit list building in any way. As would I, based on those stats. Stick three with Helynna at least and cackle all the way to top table and back (well... theoretically). The Cyclone is (in a vacuum), marginally better than the Manticore, it has more ranged output, but dies/gets crippled more easily and can't dish out a beating or handle plinking damage (however rare that is, these days). Hence my comment regarding sources of Empower/Concentrated Power. As things are, Kara Sloan is the only one who can give the Cyclone what it needs, which is regular hitting. Outside of her (Haley1, maybe for TB), the Cyclone is borderline useless with virtually every other caster because it needs three focus a turn to do work. Whereas the Manticore is actually a reasonable multi-purpose heavy for virtually every Ret caster and even if we don't want to allocate 'cos Arcanists are a thing. If the Cyclone had a direct Shyeel mirror... dear Scyrah & Nyssor, Forges lists would be in nigh every pairing. Take three with Kaelyssa with Arcanists (both solo and unit), stick Phantom Hunter on all three or either Vyros, cos Bird's Eye is fun when you have that many shots... May as well bring a bucket for the tears! Ravyn might even be playable, lulz |
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Post by streetpizza on Jan 30, 2018 14:03:20 GMT
Here's an alternative take on Sloan. I actually see a lot of potential for her in Sons of the Tempest. You lose out on the upkeep spell bonus but having access to two shadow fire shots and a damage buff for one jack's guns is pretty good. Really opens up some assassination potential. The gun mages cover all of the infantry clearing barring heavier infantry. All in all it keeps the list well rounded with strong assassination potential ... oh and REINHOLDT!!! conflictchamber.com/#c1201b_-0o9a9EiPc07ianagagjz9K9L9MCygnar Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Sons of the Tempest (Sloan 1) Captain Kara Sloan [+28] - Defender [16] - Hunter [10] - Stormwall [39] - Reinholdt, Gobber Speculator [4] Captain Arlan Strangewayes [4] Gun Mage Captain Adept [0(5)] Gun Mage Captain Adept [0(5)] Lieutenant Bastian Falk [5] Arcane Tempest Gun Mages [11] - Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Officer [4] Black 13th Strike Force [10] Alternative change: conflictchamber.com/#c1201b_-0o9aiPiPc07ifManagjz9K9McWCygnar Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Sons of the Tempest (Sloan 1) Captain Kara Sloan [+28] - Hunter [10] - Hunter [10] - Stormwall [39] - Reinholdt, Gobber Speculator [4] Arcane Tempest Rifleman [4] Captain Arlan Strangewayes [4] Gun Mage Captain Adept [0(5)] Lieutenant Bastian Falk [0(5)] Arcane Tempest Gun Mages [11] Black 13th Strike Force [10] Tempest Blazers (min) [11] |
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Jan 30, 2018 14:11:05 GMT
Any particular reason behind the Stormwall?
Wouldn't two Defenders do the job just as well with points left over? o.O
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Post by onijet01 on Jan 30, 2018 15:17:09 GMT
All i have is a core battle group
Sloan
Squire
Defender
Defender
Triumph
Minuteman
Minuteman
I am trying high quality heavies with flexible lights. Beat part is minutemen can take advantahe of her feat even while engaged.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 30, 2018 15:20:27 GMT
All i have is a core battle group Sloan Squire Defender Defender Triumph Minuteman Minuteman I am trying high quality heavies with flexible lights. Beat part is minutemen can take advantahe of her feat even while engaged. Unless you are playing out of theme, you can only take Triumph in Gravediggers, if that is the case then Grenadiers would be a good shout, as they get good mileage out of Guided Fire with 3 shots each, and love Fire Group making them RNG 12. Trencher Clouds are also great for protecting squishy a squishy Sloan who wants to hand out/spend all her focus |
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Post by onijet01 on Jan 30, 2018 15:41:33 GMT
Most like i will be playing her out of theme with the T.A.C. unit and Steelheads, modely because she lacks any infantry support and Steelhead Halbadiers are cheep and fairly well stated.
Still looking into her list and i thoughtsteelhead halbadiers with cav
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 30, 2018 15:53:28 GMT
Most like i will be playing her out of theme with the T.A.C. unit and Steelheads, modely because she lacks any infantry support and Steelhead Halbadiers are cheep and fairly well stated. Still looking into her list and i thoughtsteelhead halbadiers with cav I don't think it is worth breaking theme for Halbs and Cav, they are average units, and need some form of buff (usually Sure Foot from Damiano) to be worthwhile.
Trenchers are fine as they protect themselves, are a good screening unit and can re-load any Grenadiers you have on Sloan. The fact that Sloan lacks any infantry support means you should be taking mostly warjacks with her.
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Post by streetpizza on Jan 30, 2018 17:55:16 GMT
Any particular reason behind the Stormwall? Wouldn't two Defenders do the job just as well with points left over? o.O Covering fire, pods for contesting and Arlan can hand out magic weapons to one jack covering both big guns for the damage buff from Falk if required. |
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