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Post by Gamingdevil on Jan 18, 2018 7:59:31 GMT
I've never played against them, so I don't have an opinion, but I was curious- do they matchup particularly well against certain factions? At a team tournament, I feel like it'd be possible to set them up with good matchups at times, but is that actually something they can depend on? My impression of Grymkin (and LoS Jaden , correct me if I'm wrong) is the following: - they have no (or very few) real blowout matches either way. - they have very few bad matchups, and most of those matchups are still very winnable - they have a large number of advantaged matchups. in the range 55-60% - 40-45%. - even in otherwise balanced matchups, Arcana create gotcha moments that can blowout games very easily if not played around correctly, and with a great deal of care. This also causes games against Grymkin to be harder on the clock. Combined, I'm not surprised this gives Grymkin an advantage over a large sample of matchups. I also think that the lack of bad matchups makes them do better in a team format, because that flexibility means that you can try and dump them into whatever matchup the rest of your team is worst into, and still have a reasonable chance of winning. I think this is accurate, especially the clock part. By themselves the Arcana are not that powerful/hard to play around, but having 3 and having to take all of them into account takes a lot of effort, especially if you don't have the required experience. The problem is also that it's practically impossible to know how to play against them if you don't have first hand experience (I think it's easier to "learn" other factions by reading about them), but there aren't that many (good) people actively playing them, so it's hard to get practice in. I play in competitive events regularly and I've played against Grymkin exactly once. It wasn't completely overpowering, but the mind games made me make some critical mistakes, costing me the game. And it will take a few more games to really take that into account, especially if it takes months before I get to play against them again. Aside from that I do think they are ever so slightly too strong, on an individual model basis, but that in itself doesn't break the game. They also have amazing synergies though, but it's a small faction, so they kind of have to.
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Post by Azuresun on Jan 18, 2018 15:07:45 GMT
My impression of Grymkin (and LoS Jaden , correct me if I'm wrong) is the following: - they have no (or very few) real blowout matches either way. - they have very few bad matchups, and most of those matchups are still very winnable - they have a large number of advantaged matchups. in the range 55-60% - 40-45%. - even in otherwise balanced matchups, Arcana create gotcha moments that can blowout games very easily if not played around correctly, and with a great deal of care. This also causes games against Grymkin to be harder on the clock. Combined, I'm not surprised this gives Grymkin an advantage over a large sample of matchups. I also think that the lack of bad matchups makes them do better in a team format, because that flexibility means that you can try and dump them into whatever matchup the rest of your team is worst into, and still have a reasonable chance of winning. I'd add one more--spammable incorporeal + stealth solos (plus a beast with Arcane Vortex) give them a ridiculously good scenario game. Against Dark Menagerie, scenario is automatically off the table for many lists. It's an issue mainly with Incorporeal being broken in SR, but Grymkin can exploit it better than most.
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Post by benjamini on Jan 18, 2018 15:32:14 GMT
My impression of Grymkin (and LoS Jaden , correct me if I'm wrong) is the following: - they have no (or very few) real blowout matches either way. - they have very few bad matchups, and most of those matchups are still very winnable - they have a large number of advantaged matchups. in the range 55-60% - 40-45%. - even in otherwise balanced matchups, Arcana create gotcha moments that can blowout games very easily if not played around correctly, and with a great deal of care. This also causes games against Grymkin to be harder on the clock. Combined, I'm not surprised this gives Grymkin an advantage over a large sample of matchups. I also think that the lack of bad matchups makes them do better in a team format, because that flexibility means that you can try and dump them into whatever matchup the rest of your team is worst into, and still have a reasonable chance of winning. I'd add one more--spammable incorporeal + stealth solos (plus a beast with Arcane Vortex) give them a ridiculously good scenario game. Against Dark Menagerie, scenario is automatically off the table for many lists. It's an issue mainly with Incorporeal being broken in SR, but Grymkin can exploit it better than most. Incorporeal does seem to force a gear check that a couple of factions benefit more from in SR 2017 than others. Without a radical rework in how incorporeal works, any ideas on how this might be eased?
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 18, 2018 15:44:52 GMT
I'd add one more--spammable incorporeal + stealth solos (plus a beast with Arcane Vortex) give them a ridiculously good scenario game. Against Dark Menagerie, scenario is automatically off the table for many lists. It's an issue mainly with Incorporeal being broken in SR, but Grymkin can exploit it better than most. Incorporeal does seem to force a gear check that a couple of factions benefit more from in SR 2017 than others. Without a radical rework in how incorporeal works, any ideas on how this might be eased? Take magic weapons...
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Post by Azuresun on Jan 18, 2018 16:30:54 GMT
Incorporeal does seem to force a gear check that a couple of factions benefit more from in SR 2017 than others. Without a radical rework in how incorporeal works, any ideas on how this might be eased? Take magic weapons...
....that can either get close enough or get through Stealth (and reliably hit non-trivial DEF) you forgot that bit. Good luck winkling them out if there's cover or LOS-blocking terrain in the zone. It's Incorporeal & Stealth together that makes it a uniquely noxious gear check.
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Post by elladan52 on Jan 18, 2018 16:33:41 GMT
....that can either get close enough or get through Stealth (and reliably hit non-trivial DEF) you forgot that bit. Good luck winkling them out if there's cover or LOS-blocking terrain in the zone. It's Incorporeal & Stealth together that makes it a uniquely noxious gear check.
Just play Kaelyssa, duh.
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Post by benjamini on Jan 18, 2018 17:13:13 GMT
Obviously that is a solution to incorporeal models on a model to model scale. That being said, I'm not entirely supportive of binary gear-checks in the game system. Stealth for example, has counter-play even if you don't bring some means of ignoring it. It might be hard, but it can definitely be done. Not what I consider a binary gear check. Incorporeal just locks off an entire victory condition for you if you didn't bring the tools to deal with it. So you get locked into certain builds / basically forced to drop a certain list because you don't want this to happen.
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Choco
Junior Strategist
Gorten, best feet in the game.
Posts: 571
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Post by Choco on Jan 18, 2018 17:41:35 GMT
Obviously that is a solution to incorporeal models on a model to model scale. That being said, I'm not entirely supportive of binary gear-checks in the game system. Stealth for example, has counter-play even if you don't bring some means of ignoring it. It might be hard, but it can definitely be done. Not what I consider a binary gear check. Incorporeal just locks off an entire victory condition for you if you didn't bring the tools to deal with it. So you get locked into certain builds / basically forced to drop a certain list because you don't want this to happen. This also depends on which faction you play. There are some that trivially have ways of dealing with them. PoM pops up with so many magic weapons and popular casters also being spellslingers. Then you have the Hammerstrike theme that only has one option (TAC) besides the caster to deal with them. This fear of them seems trivial unless we know what factions people are playing into Grymkin.
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Post by benjamini on Jan 18, 2018 17:55:19 GMT
This also depends on which faction you play. There are some that trivially have ways of dealing with them. PoM pops up with so many magic weapons and popular casters also being spellslingers. Then you have the Hammerstrike theme that only has one option (TAC) besides the caster to deal with them. This fear of them seems trivial unless we know what factions people are playing into Grymkin. Mercs as a whole might have some decent ways of dealing with them at least... just not in Hammerstrike! When I made my last comment it wasn't really a "Grymkin" thing it was an "Incorporeal" thing. It's just in Grymkin thread because the discussion kind of headed in that direction. Do you think it's okay for the health of the game to have binary gear checks in its design? Especially when they are easier to overcome for some factions than others? Honestly, outside of spammed Gremlin Swarms as they are, my thoughts on Grymkin balance are pretty mild.
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Post by Azuresun on Jan 18, 2018 20:09:27 GMT
This also depends on which faction you play. There are some that trivially have ways of dealing with them. PoM pops up with so many magic weapons and popular casters also being spellslingers. Then you have the Hammerstrike theme that only has one option (TAC) besides the caster to deal with them. This fear of them seems trivial unless we know what factions people are playing into Grymkin. Again, it's the combination of Stealth and Incorporeal (and implicitly, a player who will identify the threats and keep the Gremlins as far away from them as possible while still toeing every zone) that lets them shut down scenario play so well. Magic weapons and spells are common enough that it's reasonable to expect them in a TAC list, but when you add Stealth to that, it gets into the territory of gear check.
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Post by mikethefish on Jan 18, 2018 23:19:40 GMT
They toned down Denny and H2 based on their results, Grykmin results clearly warrant some nerf. Reactionary nonsense
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Post by killroundears on Jan 18, 2018 23:49:41 GMT
Obviously that is a solution to incorporeal models on a model to model scale. That being said, I'm not entirely supportive of binary gear-checks in the game system. Stealth for example, has counter-play even if you don't bring some means of ignoring it. It might be hard, but it can definitely be done. Not what I consider a binary gear check. Incorporeal just locks off an entire victory condition for you if you didn't bring the tools to deal with it. So you get locked into certain builds / basically forced to drop a certain list because you don't want this to happen. This also depends on which faction you play. There are some that trivially have ways of dealing with them. PoM pops up with so many magic weapons and popular casters also being spellslingers. Then you have the Hammerstrike theme that only has one option (TAC) besides the caster to deal with them. This fear of them seems trivial unless we know what factions people are playing into Grymkin. PoM is the king of dealing with gremlim swarms though because they have access to Elias Gade, Professional Gremlin Hunter. i'm fairly confident a model with ranged magical weapons, prey and true sight doesn't get printed in a vacuum heh
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Fire Step
Junior Strategist
Everyday I'm Wrastlin'
Posts: 334
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Post by Fire Step on Jan 19, 2018 12:16:26 GMT
I've played into Grymkin four times and lost once. Like every faction in this game, if you go into a match (on either side) with imperfect information you'll get steamrolled, as skill trumps pure luck every time.
Grymkin as a faction exaggerates this effect as they're mostly reactionary - meaning your own decisions often will condemn you.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Feb 2, 2018 16:43:39 GMT
I've never played against them, so I don't have an opinion, but I was curious- do they matchup particularly well against certain factions? At a team tournament, I feel like it'd be possible to set them up with good matchups at times, but is that actually something they can depend on? Selecting their arcana by the matchup means they never get a dud, and certain arcana can shut down entire lists. Futhermore, each model they have is either extremely cheap, carries two or three tools that other factions often have to take dedicated models or themes for, and occasionally both (looking at you, dread rots with weapon master and rfp and low cost).
So it's less that they inherently beat certain factions and more that they can shift tactics on the ground rather than at list selection to never be properly countered. You just don't find that anywhere else.
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