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Post by oncomingstorm on Jan 17, 2018 19:21:59 GMT
In light of the recent ATC results (coupled with the generally strong results Grymkin have put up since their release) I thought it might be productive to have a discussion as to whether or not Grymkin are 'too strong', and - if so - where we feel the problem lies.
Personally, I have never felt that a game against Grymkin was oppressive, per se - my winrate against them is 76%, which is way higher than my winrate against some other factions. I also have a hard time pinpointing any single factor that is way above curve. However, when playing against them, I do get the consistent impression that a majority of their models are just a little bit too good - a point or two too cheap, an extra special rule/point in a stat that they don't really need or deserve, etc. Same goes for some of the Arcana.
On the other hand, I do think that there's a huge skill aspect to playing against Grymkin, and that a key aspect of winning against them is knowing exactly what their models/arcana do (moreso than most factions). So I do feel like the faction punishes 'bad' play, or unknowledgeable players much more than other factions.
What do y'all think?
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Asmoridin
Junior Strategist
Getting back into the game after too long a hiatus!
Posts: 323
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Post by Asmoridin on Jan 17, 2018 19:44:26 GMT
I've never played against them, so I don't have an opinion, but I was curious- do they matchup particularly well against certain factions? At a team tournament, I feel like it'd be possible to set them up with good matchups at times, but is that actually something they can depend on?
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 17, 2018 19:45:43 GMT
Give it 6 months then ask me again
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Post by Blargaliscious on Jan 17, 2018 20:31:36 GMT
Grymkin? What are Grymkin?
Is that somewhere near Sand Khador? Or South Khador?
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Post by benjamini on Jan 17, 2018 20:38:21 GMT
In light of the recent ATC results (coupled with the generally strong results Grymkin have put up since their release) I thought it might be productive to have a discussion as to whether or not Grymkin are 'too strong', and - if so - where we feel the problem lies. Personally, I have never felt that a game against Grymkin was oppressive, per se - my winrate against them is 76%, which is way higher than my winrate against some other factions. I also have a hard time pinpointing any single factor that is way above curve. However, when playing against them, I do get the consistent impression that a majority of their models are just a little bit too good - a point or two too cheap, an extra special rule/point in a stat that they don't really need or deserve, etc. Same goes for some of the Arcana. On the other hand, I do think that there's a huge skill aspect to playing against Grymkin, and that a key aspect of winning against them is knowing exactly what their models/arcana do (moreso than most factions). So I do feel like the faction punishes 'bad' play, or unknowledgeable players much more than other factions. What do y'all think? I'd say that this sums up my thoughts in particular. There are a couple Grymkin players that frequent my playgroup... but I have managed a pretty solid winrate against them (that being said, none of them have yet played Dreamer, who is hear is the most abusive of the bunch). As a faction they seem to have a lot of really good rules, but there are some things they DO NOT like to see. I have a feeling that in a few month months we'll see a Grymkin tournament winrate down around 58-62%. Still high levels, but not as clear an outlier. They really do need a different mindset to play against, so it makes sense that it's taking some time to adapt to them. I'd be curious to see what a Grymkin player thinks about this! That being said, it does kind of feed into my fears about the effectiveness of CID at identifying weak area if this faction as a whole remains so far above the curve. (Though the performance of Trollkin and Protectorate were encouraging!)
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Post by tesoe on Jan 17, 2018 20:53:54 GMT
Grymkin? What are Grymkin? Is that somewhere near Sand Khador? Or South Khador? It's "Old Witch's Khador." Aka "Spooky Weird Khador." I haven't had a chance to play against them, but I'm always surprised when I hear about them being really strong. They don't look particularly strong. A little weak if anything.
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Jan 17, 2018 20:54:45 GMT
That being said, it does kind of feed into my fears about the effectiveness of CID at identifying weak area if this faction as a whole remains so far above the curve. (Though the performance of Trollkin and Protectorate were encouraging!) Regardless of any issues with Grymkin's balance (which I'm not sure there are) I don't think that that speaks at all to the efficacy of CID since it was the first big one and the first new faction in years.
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Post by benjamini on Jan 17, 2018 21:00:35 GMT
Regardless of any issues with Grymkin's balance (which I'm not sure there are) I don't think that that speaks at all to the efficacy of CID since it was the first big one and the first new faction in years. I was probably being overly dramatic when I said this. There may end up not being a real balance issue and it might simply be a matter of learning to play against their rules in general. Arcana make it a whole new puzzle to sort out!
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Jan 17, 2018 21:18:52 GMT
That it does, from both ends lol. Just started playing them and trying to remember to trigger the arcana keeps throwing me off.
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Post by LoS Jaden on Jan 17, 2018 21:27:04 GMT
Grymkin ATC player here.
Grymkin have almost no terrible matchups and almost no fantastic ones. The faction is 100% fightable by nearly anything in the game as long as you know what they do and how to avoid the traps that they set. They are still, as a faction, too new for people to truly have good play experience into them at this point, and a lot of what people do get to play into is people learning the faction and not playing optimally.
I had an opponent at the ATC go "wow, I have never played against a good Grymkin player before, I thought this was a good matchup" and that basically sums it up. The faction doesn't really have a skill cap, and that attracts excellent players who will do well with it. On the flip side, it's a garbage faction if played poorly, and that certainly happens a lot too.
In an equal skill matchup, the player with the most games in against the Grymkin or as the Grymkin wins, simply because neutering Grymkins strongest things (the Arcana) is pretty simple to do if you've got a solid understanding of how they work. The Grymkin player must force you into a situation where you don't have a choice, and when that happens the faction is very strong.
TL;DR - Grymkin is a really hard faction to play, and to play against, and whichever player knows the faction better will win most of the time.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jan 17, 2018 23:21:19 GMT
They toned down Denny and H2 based on their results, Grykmin results clearly warrant some nerf.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jan 17, 2018 23:30:48 GMT
This is my douchy/elitist opinion Average players generally don't know how to play against Regular factions, so it follows that the average player will have a harder time against a Faction where the regular thought patterns don't apply.
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Jan 17, 2018 23:44:46 GMT
I think Grymkin are still too new, and people are too unused to them in a national level competitive environment to really make a full bore decision. The ATC results are somewhat surprising, but not earth-shattering. They are a new faction on the block and the ATC's structure might still be adjusting to how grymkin fit into higher strategy for teams.
Give it more time and events before we start drawing conclusions.
There's a larger issue however if at the end of the proverbial day Grymkin are in need of an adjustment within 1 year of deployment. It means CID may not be the best method of rolling out a new faction.
And before anyone gets their knickers in a twist over that statement, Retribution came out strong at deployment but not overbearing (I was an infernal during this period, did a lot of work in conjunction with Ret), and CoC came out as basically the bar of internal balance for factions (this was shortly after I retired). If (and its a big if) Grymkin end up being a meta-bender within a year after drop, then we have evidence of two prior factions being release in non CID style with better relative balance.
Not saying i think that's the case, just saying that if it comes to pass that Grymkin left CID and final tweaks in need of some balance adjustments, its not an ultimately positive commentary on CID in terms of rolling out new factions in comparison to history.
That all said ; i still think its WAY too soon. Similar comments were made by some about Ret, and while they were strong at release, and had a short heyday of some nasty stuff in MK1 and 2, I don't think they were meta-bending. I don't think, ultimately, Grymkin will either.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jan 17, 2018 23:55:58 GMT
I've never played against them, so I don't have an opinion, but I was curious- do they matchup particularly well against certain factions? At a team tournament, I feel like it'd be possible to set them up with good matchups at times, but is that actually something they can depend on? My impression of Grymkin (and LoS Jaden , correct me if I'm wrong) is the following: - they have no (or very few) real blowout matches either way. - they have very few bad matchups, and most of those matchups are still very winnable - they have a large number of advantaged matchups. in the range 55-60% - 40-45%. - even in otherwise balanced matchups, Arcana create gotcha moments that can blowout games very easily if not played around correctly, and with a great deal of care. This also causes games against Grymkin to be harder on the clock. Combined, I'm not surprised this gives Grymkin an advantage over a large sample of matchups. I also think that the lack of bad matchups makes them do better in a team format, because that flexibility means that you can try and dump them into whatever matchup the rest of your team is worst into, and still have a reasonable chance of winning.
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Post by LoS Jaden on Jan 18, 2018 2:00:56 GMT
I've never played against them, so I don't have an opinion, but I was curious- do they matchup particularly well against certain factions? At a team tournament, I feel like it'd be possible to set them up with good matchups at times, but is that actually something they can depend on? My impression of Grymkin (and LoS Jaden, correct me if I'm wrong) is the following: - they have no (or very few) real blowout matches either way. - they have very few bad matchups, and most of those matchups are still very winnable - they have a large number of advantaged matchups. in the range 55-60% - 55-40%. - even in otherwise balanced matchups, Arcana create gotcha moments that can blowout games very easily if not played around correctly, and with a great deal of care. This also causes games against Grymkin to be harder on the clock. Combined, I'm not surprised this gives Grymkin an advantage over a large sample of matchups. I also think that the lack of bad matchups makes them do better in a team format, because that flexibility means that you can try and dump them into whatever matchup the rest of your team is worst into, and still have a reasonable chance of winning. Nailed it.
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