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Post by Gamingdevil on Jan 17, 2018 11:16:26 GMT
I know we just got a CID and likely won't be getting another for a long time, but I was wondering which models still, potentially after CID, sit on your shelf 100% of the time and thus could use some help, being effectively "dead" models in the faction.
Harrower: The model that prompted me to start this thread, overshadowed by both the Desecrator and Leviathan, not even that great at clearing infantry, but costs a premium. Technically the free boosted Ghost Shot is useful, but it's not that easy to set up and still a lot of points for one gimmick.
Helldiver: technically not bad, but so slow that it never seems to find a spot in any lists, especially not over a Deathripper
Defiler: its main function is still being an arc node and even though a boostable spray is good, the fact that it can't be free in BI and it costing more than the other options means that it never seems to find a spot.
Bile Thralls and Carrion Thralls: Infernal Machines is not played very often and when it is it's either for spamming Mechanithralls/Brutes and/or for wanting Soulhunters. As such, there's usually no space to add in our other thrall options. Technically not bad though.
Bloat Thralls and Bloat Thrall Overseer Mobius: again, technically not bad, but in the only theme they are allowed, they seem too expensive versus just spamming more cheap infantry.
Sepulcher: low range on the guns, doesn't hit very hard for a Colossal and takes up a lot of points for being a glorified Necrosurgeon. It's basically shoe horned into Infernal Machines and I can't really see myself ever putting it in a list.
There are of course other things that have niche roles and rarely get into lists, such as Shrikes and Bane Knights, but they are playable in certain configurations, which is why I don't add them here.
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Post by tiberius on Jan 17, 2018 11:52:42 GMT
I play a lot more casually so I find myself using things that most people don't, but the two big ones I agree with you about are the helldiver and the defiler. With the nerf to burrowing, I just don't want to use the helldiver. It is too slow and just isn't fun to me anymore. The defiler, I can get much more accurate corrosion sprays for cheaper with war witch sirens. The arc node is nice, but if I am going for a ranged arc node, I always reach for the nightwretch. For melee ones, it depends if I am spending 6 or 7 points. I prefer the ripjaw for the powerful attack and a chance at armor piercing, but the deathripper is our discount and worth its cost.
I love using bloat thralls and the overseer, but it is hard to fit them in most lists. And you are correct, they are only allowed in the thralls theme.
All the other models you listed, I use regularly. In fact, the harrower is my favorite crab jack.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jan 17, 2018 12:03:12 GMT
I play a lot more casually so I find myself using things that most people don't, but the two big ones I agree with you about are the helldiver and the defiler. With the nerf to burrowing, I just don't want to use the helldiver. It is too slow and just isn't fun to me anymore. The defiler, I can get much more accurate corrosion sprays for cheaper with war witch sirens. The arc node is nice, but if I am going for a ranged arc node, I always reach for the nightwretch. For melee ones, it depends if I am spending 6 or 7 points. I prefer the ripjaw for the powerful attack and a chance at armor piercing, but the deathripper is our discount and worth its cost. I love using bloat thralls and the overseer, but it is hard to fit them in most lists. And you are correct, they are only allowed in the thralls theme. All the other models you listed, I use regularly. In fact, the harrower is my favorite crab jack. Would you mind giving some insight into how you get good effect from the Sepulcher and Harrower?
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Post by tiberius on Jan 17, 2018 13:07:06 GMT
A lot of it probably has to do with matchups and my meta, which consists of pretty much one other guy who plays Menoth or Coc regularly. The harrower, I find, is probably the feelings I had for it when it was our non-character heavy with reach from MKII, and could get a lot of work done with its thresher. And it really didn't lose anything from going to MKIII, in fact I think it gained an ability or two. Though I did used to like it when I could spend the souls for boosting or additional attacks. Now, if I set it up right with a buff like carnage or scything touch, it can take care of whatever I charge it into and pretty kills everything with thresher + additional attacks unless it is going up against multiple heavies. Reach + thresher is what I like about it. Personally I like it better than the desecrator and always get better work out of it. The leviathan is debatable for me, but they fill different roles for me.
The Sepulcher is a really powerful gun boat that helps me live the dream of a never ending thrall recursion boat. And with the armies that my opponent plays and the tools he currently owns, he has a tough time chewing through that kind of recursion. And if you think I am a casual player, this guy hates playing any type of scenario game (finds them boring) and refuses to net list the "competitive" lists and typically spurns themes. If its popular, I am pretty sure he hates it.
Anyhow, I can typically shoot a heavy off the table per round with the sepulcher, even more so with someone like Mortenebra 1 and her interface ability. With a screen of thralls in front of it, I just eventually win on attrition since he can never get more than a single heavy up to it and that isn't enough to get it done. I follow it around with a pair of necrotechs to keep the damage off of it and with my opponent, I vary rarely have to worry about any type of ranged presence. He likes to field 4-5 heavies regularly, 1-2 units and a few solos.
So how do I get a lot of work out of those two guys? Thank my meta.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jan 17, 2018 13:29:05 GMT
On the Harrower: I hear you, my problem is mostly with its cost and that it tries to be a hybrid. In my opinion, when you want something that shoots, you take a Leviathan (which I also think is slightly overpriced), when you want something that melees, you reach for a bi-pedal jack (which are all cheaper) and when you want the best of both worlds, you take a Desecrator, with a larger AoE, at higher POW and a higher POW melee weapon with Grievous Wounds and critical Shred. Its only real competition as a hybrid is the Desecrator, which appears to be better at both, except the 2" melee and Thresher and is cheaper. If it were 14, like its counter part, I could see myself taking one as the sole heavy in a list, but at 16, it's so meh. I see what you're saying on the Sepulcher as well. The guns are powerful, but RNG 10 really hurts them as it puts them in threat range of literally any heavy (most slower heavies will bring a threat extension of some sorts) and the "main gun" is not even really worth talking about at 13/13 AoE 4. If the secondary guns were RNG 11, like they were when it was announced in MK2, I could see myself playing it more. You're right that you can protect it with some recurring Mechanithralls, but then we're in Infernal Machines again and I play Infernal Machines only because: I want to get Deathjack and for some reason don't like Carapace (I do this less and less), or I want to play loads of Mechanithralls (which I will in reason number 1 also, because I need the Shield Guards to prevent Deathjack from getting shot). Neither of those builds really allow the points for an extra colossal and for the rest I always seem to reach for the Kraken first, because its main gun is more impactful, at a higher range, and it can hit harder in melee. I'm not trying to dissuade you from playing what you enjoy, just elaborating on my reasoning
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Post by tiberius on Jan 17, 2018 13:39:31 GMT
I love the Kraken and Deathjack too. I just shot the harbinger off the table two weeks ago with Aiakos and a Kraken. He had to keep her close to use martyrdom for his exemplars, but that keeps her in range of the RNG 16 unicorn cannon, and after getting through his shield guard jack, I am able to shoot her off the table. He said he felt like he never had anywhere he could hide from its long threat range and be able to stay relevant, and he was right. Range wise, the Kraken has a longer reach, the Sepulcher guns hit a lot harder but at much shorter range. Though they are also dependent on rolling a high initial number of attacks.
I always get good work out of deathjack. But I would expect that from our premier character jack. And as much as I enjoy using it, sometimes I just want something bigger.
But yeah, I can see your points and you are correct in your thinking. There are cheaper and better options for the roles I have given them.
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Post by wseraphim on Jan 17, 2018 18:48:14 GMT
I Actually use Sepulcher in one of my lists He can put in play some brute thrall shield guards, crit paralyze something occasionally and he has a pull on his tentacles which can break some opponents mechanics like shield guard or arcane wortex
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kuarnix
Junior Strategist
Posts: 145
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Post by kuarnix on Jan 18, 2018 0:20:39 GMT
Agree about the Helldiver and the Defiler; I'm not finding a spot for these guys.
I've done a 180 on the Harrower. I thought it was garbage, but if you have any kind of accuracy or speed buff it can be super nasty. You thresher to kill 2-3 models, then shoot into the rest of the unit to kill another 3-5, often including an officer, or you shoot at a hidden support solo, or something equally obnoxious. After that, it's not impossible to dislodge but it's not trivial. Though 16 points is a touch steep. But, yeah, if you are not seeing at least a 10-man blob of infantry then it is not going to do very well for you. Ideally, it wants to go into a unit that is not super strong in melee.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jan 18, 2018 8:04:26 GMT
Agree about the Helldiver and the Defiler; I'm not finding a spot for these guys. I've done a 180 on the Harrower. I thought it was garbage, but if you have any kind of accuracy or speed buff it can be super nasty. You thresher to kill 2-3 models, then shoot into the rest of the unit to kill another 3-5, often including an officer, or you shoot at a hidden support solo, or something equally obnoxious. After that, it's not impossible to dislodge but it's not trivial. Though 16 points is a touch steep. But, yeah, if you are not seeing at least a 10-man blob of infantry then it is not going to do very well for you. Ideally, it wants to go into a unit that is not super strong in melee. My problem is that there aren't many casters that do exactly that. Off the top of my head are Coven's Infernal Machine, but its point cost doesn't allow the double arc node + heavy to fit exactly in their battle group points. They're also most often played in Dark Host where a Desecrator is probably the better choice. Then there's Goreshade 3 as another Infernal Machine caster, but if you're there, I guess you might as well go ahead and take the Kraken, who also loves +2 SPD and Murderous. There's Aiakos 2 with Assail and Carnage, but with the newly discounted Kharybdis and him also usually wanting Deathjack, I don't see the point of using more points on a Harrower. And like you said, it's basically only an infantry clearer with a clutch assassination shot. Against jacks it just falls short with it's 1 POW 16 initial and POW 12 shot. At least the Desecrator has POW 17, Grievous Wounds and critical Shred, for 2 points less. And with a 4" Scather template at POW 14 it's pretty decent at countering infantry as well. The Leviathan is great at softening up heavy targets at range and with D3 shots, maybe it can kill some infantry as well. In melee it also has POW 17 though not much else going for it (didn't it used to have Sustained Attack?), but at least it's a good gun platform. I want to play it, give it a chance, but I seem to never find a spot for it, because it just falls short. I actually played it a lot in MK2 and think it even got slightly better now, so I don't know what happened.
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Post by tiberius on Jan 18, 2018 11:47:11 GMT
What happened was everything else got a bit better and the meta changed away from dude-machine. With themes, it may be coming back into that or more balanced, but you don't see very many all infantry lists anymore so the Harrower's natural prey is not available outside of mirror matches and it would rather be eating living factions.
The Leviathan used to have a crushing claw, that would take out an entire system if it damaged it (with a crit?). I don't remember the details, but that was way back in MKI. MKII took that away and make it a super focus hog. And now I think it is one of the best crab jacks, especially if you want a good gun.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jan 18, 2018 13:09:25 GMT
What happened was everything else got a bit better and the meta changed away from dude-machine. With themes, it may be coming back into that or more balanced, but you don't see very many all infantry lists anymore so the Harrower's natural prey is not available outside of mirror matches and it would rather be eating living factions. The Leviathan used to have a crushing claw, that would take out an entire system if it damaged it (with a crit?). I don't remember the details, but that was way back in MKI. MKII took that away and make it a super focus hog. And now I think it is one of the best crab jacks, especially if you want a good gun. I still think it's slightly overpriced. Giving it Reload 1 (so a third focus will never be utterly wasted) or reducing its cost to 15 would fix it for me. But as is it has a place as a dedicated gun platform. I really don't see why the Harrower is not just 14 like it's other brother. Unfortunately the pirate CID was the moment to change our nautical jacks and they weren't even mentioned, so it's safe to say they won't be coming back to them for a long, long time.
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Post by tiberius on Jan 18, 2018 13:47:39 GMT
Yeah, we are pretty spoiled for cheap alternatives. Looking at reach heavies in my other factions, the Dire Troll Brawler costs 16 with no ranged weapon, same basic stats and boxes, has two initial reach attacks at P+S 17 chain weapons, and can give itself retaliatory strike (animus). It can also get one additional attack if you go full fury vs full focus buying attacks. It also self heals through regeneration and snacking.
The warp wolf stalker costs 19 pts, has a single attack at 2" reach at P+S 16 (can be higher if you warp for strength or gain psudo thresher if you warp for berserk) and a single 1" melee attack. It can gain stealth if you warp for prowl. You are paying for versatility and it can give itself sprint making it very mobile. It has slightly better stats with SPD 6, DEF 14 but ARM 17. It also has less boxes than either the harrower or the troll.
So just comparing it in a vacuum against these other options, it looks pretty good. It just loses its viability when compared to other in faction choices that do anything it can do better and sometimes cheaper.
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Post by darkshroud on Jan 18, 2018 18:01:33 GMT
Yeah, we are pretty spoiled for cheap alternatives. Looking at reach heavies in my other factions, the Dire Troll Brawler costs 16 with no ranged weapon, same basic stats and boxes, has two initial reach attacks at P+S 17 chain weapons, and can give itself retaliatory strike (animus). It can also get one additional attack if you go full fury vs full focus buying attacks. It also self heals through regeneration and snacking. The warp wolf stalker costs 19 pts, has a single attack at 2" reach at P+S 16 (can be higher if you warp for strength or gain psudo thresher if you warp for berserk) and a single 1" melee attack. It can gain stealth if you warp for prowl. You are paying for versatility and it can give itself sprint making it very mobile. It has slightly better stats with SPD 6, DEF 14 but ARM 17. It also has less boxes than either the harrower or the troll. So just comparing it in a vacuum against these other options, it looks pretty good. It just loses its viability when compared to other in faction choices that do anything it can do better and sometimes cheaper. i wouldnt use the ww stalker as an example. most circle players dont like him due to his expensive tag. but i agree with everything the op said and peoples thoughts for their exclusion. you could probably add the corruptor, erebus, malice, reaper, nightwretch, and shrike to the list. as much as i use the reaper, most others dont. i personally love him and try to include him as much as possible. i want to like the corruptor and really want to use him but cant find points for him. i want to like erebus but things will shake and they just rip him apart and he'll kill infantry before he freezes them. he seems like an expensive assassination piece. there are other arcnodes id rather use than the nightwretch especially since denny will be getting rid of her pop and drop. the shrike that people say is amazing i just cant. to get a good trample lane lined up is way too circumstantial for me to bring one when id rather use a scavenger to charge with an extra dice. thoroughly enjoy using the levi. i was super pissed at the d3 shots when mk3 dropped but got over it and learned to deal with it. will always take him over the harrower. we have too many good infantry clearing things to have a jack dedicated to it.
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Post by tiberius on Jan 18, 2018 18:14:21 GMT
A reaper makes it into a lot of my lists, for the drag shenanigans, sustained attack and reach, it gets a lot of work done for its price tag of what? 13 points?
Corruptor and Malice, I also agree with. I would rather use a reaper than malice, just hands down. Corruptor, I really want to like it but 16 points for that chassis is just too much for me. Its not that I have not done good work with them, they always perform well when I use them, but it falls into your argument of, we have too many things that clear infantry, and that is just one more for a really big price tag. I love the idea of it though.
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kuarnix
Junior Strategist
Posts: 145
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Post by kuarnix on Jan 18, 2018 23:11:24 GMT
I want to play it, give it a chance, but I seem to never find a spot for it, because it just falls short. I actually played it a lot in MK2 and think it even got slightly better now, so I don't know what happened. Yeah, I think the meta is one thing. I didn't play it when I was seeing nothing but bricks, now that I'm seeing 10-20 dudes on the table regularly it's making its way back into my lists. I think it's usually worth it to get less models on the thresher attack so you can blast more models with the boosted shot. The list of 'casters that can give it what it needs (aside from those you mentioned) to get into infantry in a bad way is pretty substantial: -Gaspy3 (speed/accuracy but not trivial to do both) -Mortenabra (speed and easy 3 FOC for boosts) -Venethrax (if you haven't played him in Black Industries you are missing out on a fun time) -Scaverous (TK/Icy Grip) Most others tend to provide something it needs but not speed and accuracy together. Accuracy is probably more dispensable. It's a touch gimmicky and blast damage immune models will make you sad. Give it a shot in a few games when you're not playing against a box spam or armor skew type list and see what you can get out of it. I really did think it was hot garbage, but, at least in my meta, I was wrong.
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