Grimolf
Junior Strategist
Posts: 246
|
Post by Grimolf on Jan 12, 2018 0:48:30 GMT
With the number of Haley3 (Gravediggers) and Nemo3 (Heavy Metal, often double Storm Strider) lists for the ATC, I am expecting to see lots more of them in my meta. Indeed, I suspect I may see more of the Haley3/Nemo3 as a pairing, like Tom Guan’s list for team “Magic Mike and the Freaky Four.” So, I thought I’d ask here, how should Cryx handle this pairing. Is it possible to handle both of them with a single list? I’m not only asking for caster/list suggestions (although those would be useful and interesting), but also asking what kinds of tools or answers we should bring to be able to deal with them.
My initial thoughts are that incorporeal things to help ground electro-leaps is helpful against Nemo3. And, ‘jacks with good armor would be helpful (although I’ve had Malice killed with two shots from a Nemo Storm Strider). Things that can ignore Haley’s clouds might be helpful too (Cephalyx Overlords and Cephalyx Drudges?). My line of thinking is leading me toward trying Denny2 (post CID) in Black Industries. I’m not sure I’m thinking through this very well, however. So, what are your thoughts and experiences?
|
|
|
Post by Gamingdevil on Jan 12, 2018 9:49:53 GMT
In my experience Incorporeal grounding doesn't work as well in practice as it does in theory. Arlan Strangeways will be in the list, so if there are AoEs (doesn't make the leaps magical), it's not that difficult to thin out the Incorporeal models. Nemo also has Chain Lightning, which works on Incorporeal models because it's a spell and he will most likely have a Lancer.
Coven Dark Host is ok into it, because they can protect most of their stuff with the feat and Bane Riders, with some help, should be able to take out at least one of the Battle Engines. They can also hand out Stealth, which Nemo has no way to get around, except running in something to arc the lightning from. When one of the Engines is dead, you can start blinding the other one. If you don't upkeep/allocate anything, you get 3 boosted chances to score a crit (on anything but triple 1), which is usually in your favour.
I don't like this list into Haley though, the clouds hinder you and it's not accurate enough to actually hit anything. Haley Past can also easily kill the Wraith Engine and the list as a whole is good at killing infantry.
I honestly don't know what is good into Haley 3. She's not easy to play, but she has a deep toolbox with many answers to the questions that Cryx usually asks. You could try to grind it out, but she has a very strong attrition game. Perhaps a jack wall with Asphyxious 3 or Venethrax?
|
|
|
Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 12, 2018 10:36:12 GMT
I would go for Gaspy 3 in Black Industries.
Against Haley3 Carapace means that the ranged output of a Gravediggers list is greatly diminished, even with Aiyana and Holt tagging a Heavy with Kiss they just can’t achieve enough at ranged against arm21+ jacks, Unyielding also makes the list tankier against melee. The defence 15 Trenchers means you have to boost to hit, but if you take Slayers that have 3 initials, you can maybe kill 2 Trenchers a piece.
Ragman is public enemy number one as he can debuff multiple heavies, so if you can throw away an arc node to Hex Blast him early then do it. Gaspy 3s feat is quite good as well as Haley and the Echoes all have a bunch of focus to spend, and the healing means an assassination in melee by baby Haley is not as scary. The turn after you can spend all the souls to Calamity a unit, you can then Trample only needing 6s to hit the trenchers, and/or load up jacks/throw out Hellfires at Trencher solos,
It is by no means a slam dunk, and player skill will account for a lot, but I definitely think the Gaspy 3 player has a lot in their favour, especially if facing the 3xGrenadier build with no Heavy Warjacks.
Against Nemo3
The most important thing is to leave you heavies further than 4” away from each other until after the feat is done.
The Striders with Firefly buff will get to pow 17 boosted weaponmaster direct shots on feat turn, that will do a number even on arm 21, however if you are denying the pow 12 additional die bounces as well (which ignore Carapace) you can probably absorb it.
Alternatively they can shoot their own Firefly and you get hit by bounces, but then they lose their main shot, and if you position correctly it should only bounce to one jack.
So you may lose a couple of Slayers on the approach, but after that you out-threat Nemos jacks for miles, the Repulsor Field on the Striders are a bit of a problem, unless you can block your jack in they will only get 2 hits, but once the feat is gone they are much less scary.
Just don’t get Gaspy 3 killed
|
|
|
Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 12, 2018 10:38:19 GMT
Personally I don't think Haley 3 Gravediggers and Nemo 3 Heavy Metal are the way to go for a pair, both lists are great, but are countered too hard by anti-ranged tech. I think you are more likely to see one of them paired with a more melee centric list
|
|
|
Post by Gamingdevil on Jan 12, 2018 12:52:51 GMT
Personally I don't think Haley 3 Gravediggers and Nemo 3 Heavy Metal are the way to go for a pair, both lists are great, but are countered too hard by anti-ranged tech. I think you are more likely to see one of them paired with a more melee centric list Thanks for the input. To add to your point, not only do the Haleys like burning their focus, they also like taking multiple light jacks, like Grenadiers or Chargers, which also spend a lot of focus, which is another point in favour for timing Gaspy's feat right. Do you think there is anything else that has game into Haley 3? I can't really think of anything unless Haley decides to play in Storm Division, but then it will eat Gaspy 3 for breakfast anyway.
|
|
|
Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 12, 2018 13:31:33 GMT
Personally I don't think Haley 3 Gravediggers and Nemo 3 Heavy Metal are the way to go for a pair, both lists are great, but are countered too hard by anti-ranged tech. I think you are more likely to see one of them paired with a more melee centric list Thanks for the input. To add to your point, not only do the Haleys like burning their focus, they also like taking multiple light jacks, like Grenadiers or Chargers, which also spend a lot of focus, which is another point in favour for timing Gaspy's feat right. Do you think there is anything else that has game into Haley 3? I can't really think of anything unless Haley decides to play in Storm Division, but then it will eat Gaspy 3 for breakfast anyway. I think Haley 3 Gravediggers is a big problem for the majority of Cryx. It can rinse a serious amount of infantry, and even something like Coven Dark Host can be countered pretty well by the Cloud Wall, speaking as a Cygnar player the only thing I would not want to see playing Haley 3 GD is Black Industries.
|
|
|
Post by Gamingdevil on Jan 12, 2018 14:10:20 GMT
Thanks for the input. To add to your point, not only do the Haleys like burning their focus, they also like taking multiple light jacks, like Grenadiers or Chargers, which also spend a lot of focus, which is another point in favour for timing Gaspy's feat right. Do you think there is anything else that has game into Haley 3? I can't really think of anything unless Haley decides to play in Storm Division, but then it will eat Gaspy 3 for breakfast anyway. I think Haley 3 Gravediggers is a big problem for the majority of Cryx. It can rinse a serious amount of infantry, and even something like Coven Dark Host can be countered pretty well by the Cloud Wall, speaking as a Cygnar player the only thing I would not want to see playing Haley 3 GD is Black Industries. I must say, I've played this particular matchup before. And while it wasn't the worst, Haley still has the tools to make a jack line worry, especially with Domination in the mix. It will get better once Unyielding is against all melee, but being able to feed a jack to your army while turning off Unyielding (and possible a shield) and giving it -2 DEF is really bad, especially for the fragile Cryx jacks.
|
|
|
Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 12, 2018 16:26:13 GMT
I think Haley 3 Gravediggers is a big problem for the majority of Cryx. It can rinse a serious amount of infantry, and even something like Coven Dark Host can be countered pretty well by the Cloud Wall, speaking as a Cygnar player the only thing I would not want to see playing Haley 3 GD is Black Industries. I must say, I've played this particular matchup before. And while it wasn't the worst, Haley still has the tools to make a jack line worry, especially with Domination in the mix. It will get better once Unyielding is against all melee, but being able to feed a jack to your army while turning off Unyielding (and possible a shield) and giving it -2 DEF is really bad, especially for the fragile Cryx jacks. What was the Jack load out you played? I wonder if just throwing 10 Slayers at Haley 3 GD would work...
|
|
|
Post by Gamingdevil on Jan 15, 2018 13:13:03 GMT
I must say, I've played this particular matchup before. And while it wasn't the worst, Haley still has the tools to make a jack line worry, especially with Domination in the mix. It will get better once Unyielding is against all melee, but being able to feed a jack to your army while turning off Unyielding (and possible a shield) and giving it -2 DEF is really bad, especially for the fragile Cryx jacks. What was the Jack load out you played? I wonder if just throwing 10 Slayers at Haley 3 GD would work... My standard Gaspy 3 loadout: conflictchamber.com/#c4201b_-0UbY1k1w1f1u1u1h3h3b2kf0bF32Cryx Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Black Industries (Asphyxious 3) Asphyxious the Hellbringer [+24] - Cankerworm [9] - Deathjack [23] - Nightwretch [0(7)] - Seether [13] - Seether [13] - Stalker [8] Iron Lich Overseer [5] - Scavenger [0(7)] Machine Wraith [2] Soul Trapper [1] Wrong Eye [17] Cephalyx Overlords [8] I won, but it was my opponents first shot at playing Haley 3 and he took some silly risks because it was just for fun (like needing a 5 on Domination on DJ, choosing not to boost and then missing, leaving her open to assassination) I'm not a fan of spamming a bunch of Slayers, because it's just a skew and not even a particularly good one in my opinion The problem is really that Haley seems to do everything (I know she can't do it all at the same time, but against a competent opponent it might seem like she can. Her Temporal Flux basically giving the whole army +2 DEF in addition to making anything that's foolish enough to engage -2 DEF. And that's not even mentioning Tactical Supremacy, Domination, Ghost Walk and Revive. Especially Domination is brutal against a Warmachine army that relies on a few quality heavies to get the work done. PS: can't play Asphyxious 3 with 10 Slayers because he only gets 24 WJ points, 9 Slayers and Cankerworm works fine though
|
|
|
Post by onijet01 on Jan 23, 2018 1:11:39 GMT
Kinda a new question, but could Mortenebra 2 have a game into Haley 3?
I know its not a great option and she if focus 7, but with Spell Piercer, Locomotion, Fail-Safe, and Curse of Shadows. It seems like she vould have some very good tools vs Haley 3.
I know her feat only affects her battlegroup but could there be a way to use some self supporting infantry to optimize a warjack heavy list (4 to 5 heavy with/or cheap lights) to be a hood drop into Haley 3?
|
|
|
Post by Gamingdevil on Jan 23, 2018 7:39:12 GMT
Kinda a new question, but could Mortenebra 2 have a game into Haley 3? I know its not a great option and she if focus 7, but with Spell Piercer, Locomotion, Fail-Safe, and Curse of Shadows. It seems like she vould have some very good tools vs Haley 3. I know her feat only affects her battlegroup but could there be a way to use some self supporting infantry to optimize a warjack heavy list (4 to 5 heavy with/or cheap lights) to be a hood drop into Haley 3? I'm afraid our jacks won't stand up to Trencher charges, unless if you take the ARM 19 versions. And even if they would, I don't see why the Cygnar player wouldn't just drop Nemo 3; slaughtering balanced lists, where you can target the shooting at the jacks to fry the infantry, is kind of his dream.
|
|
|
Post by onijet01 on Jan 23, 2018 16:34:53 GMT
@gammingdevil
You didnt even come close to answering my question.
Trencher charges can be a problem due to assult, but vs heavy warjacks they are still dice off 6. If your in black industries the heavy warjacks become armor 21 vs guns.
So again i ask. Does Mortenebra 2 have game into Haley 3? She has some direct counters to Haley 3.
Personal oppinion, i dont take excuses like "Nemo 3 could drop" as an answer, becuase it is not relivent to the question.
|
|
|
Post by Gamingdevil on Jan 24, 2018 7:59:41 GMT
@gammingdevil You didnt even come close to answering my question. Trencher charges can be a problem due to assult, but vs heavy warjacks they are still dice off 6. If your in black industries the heavy warjacks become armor 21 vs guns. So again i ask. Does Mortenebra 2 have game into Haley 3? She has some direct counters to Haley 3. Personal oppinion, i dont take excuses like "Nemo 3 could drop" as an answer, becuase it is not relivent to the question. Alright, slightly more elaborate answer. I don't have much experience with Mortenebra 2, but I suppose her game plan would be to use the feat to assassinate. Haley's game plan will be to block you with clouds in the first few turns and use the clones and hard hitting pieces aggressively to take out your big pieces. Normal Haley will be sitting safely behind the lines of Trenchers. So you can either play the attrition, but apart from Fail Safe, Mortenebra doesn't have many attrition tools. Ideally you would have some shooting jacks that won't care about the +2 DEF because of Spell Piercer, to clear infantry, but none of our jacks can bypass the clouds. Eventually, weapon master Haley and charging trenchers with Aiyana and/or Ragman will get into your lines and even without Assault, our low ARM jacks will crumble to it. So I guess your plan would be to get a couple of jacks behind her lines to go for the kill? It might be doable, but I'm not sure how. It would depend on the kind of list you intend to play I suppose. Perhaps Dark Host with just a lot of Warriors/Knights (Riders are not that useful when they can't charge) and a light battle group just to threaten might work somewhat. But I would never call it a good matchup, maybe if she had a DEF debuff in addition to the Spell Piercer.
|
|