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Post by killroundears on Jan 11, 2018 3:08:46 GMT
how is it bad? its a massive buff to both her feat and purification and martyrdom can go back to ctrl too, so its a martyrdom buff as well and balances it by reducing her ctrl area to a reasonable level, no warcaster should have a 20" ctrl area anyway its the complete opposite of bad. its good. Its a buff to kreoss1 purification, and a significant nerf to harbys purification. she only has 1 upkeep she actually uses and she doesnt use it every game at that. she can also re-cast it fairly easily since shes MA10, something she'd lose with your change. Also the argument that 20" control shouldnt exist is silly, theres a deep pool of casters with 18" control areas through squire effect or other control range buffs and theres for example nemo1 who can have a variable control range that can be massive
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khobai
Junior Strategist
Posts: 108
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Post by khobai on Jan 11, 2018 4:04:20 GMT
Yes its a buff for Kreoss1. Thats the point. Purification is basically useless for him.
But like I said it would be a straight buff for her feat and martyrdom as well.
So really its three decent buffs and one nerf that doesnt really matter.
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Post by mydnight on Jan 11, 2018 4:08:59 GMT
Yes its a buff for Kreoss1. Thats the point. Purification is basically useless for him. But like I said it would be a straight buff for her feat and martyrdom as well. So really its three decent buffs and one nerf that doesnt really matter. There's a huge dif between a 20 and 14 inch purification and being far back enough to load up the jacks. The buff to matyrdom is the most useful part.
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khobai
Junior Strategist
Posts: 108
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Post by khobai on Jan 11, 2018 4:14:15 GMT
not really since shes mostly an infantry caster and shouldnt be using a lot of jacks anyway, and if she is using jacks theyre going to be jacks like the devout or vigilant which will always be near her anyway. I dont think ive ever needed a warjack to be 20" away from her before. 14" works just as good for her purposes.
since martyrdom would go from CMD to CTRL its actually more of a buff for her because she can stay farther away and martyrdom.
and its a huge buff for her feat as well.
she would gain way more than she loses.
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Post by killroundears on Jan 11, 2018 5:33:51 GMT
not really since shes mostly an infantry caster and shouldnt be using a lot of jacks anyway, and if she is using jacks theyre going to be jacks like the devout or vigilant which will always be near her anyway. I dont think ive ever needed a warjack to be 20" away from her before. 14" works just as good for her purposes. since martyrdom would go from CMD to CTRL its actually more of a buff for her because she can stay farther away and martyrdom. and its a huge buff for her feat as well. she would gain way more than she loses. Liking your own post is kinda sad... However, i would rather harby keep her 20" purification than ruin her unique mechanic of being the highest focus caster in the game. I'd rather they just buff her feat. thats all she needs. she doesnt need martyrdom buffed in range (although she'd appreciate it). Having her be Foc 7 and gaining 3 is just having her become nemo1. Anytime people run upkeeps on their warcaster like Road to War/Warpath or any number of upkeeps, Harby can safely knock it off without ever exposing herself. Kreoss1 finds purification harder to use because he has to get within 14" of the enemy caster... Theres quite a lot of threatening models who have 14"+ threats whether that be guns, spells, or they just have long melee threats and on top of that, warcasters are not usually on the front line. i strongly disagree you have to go through this whole weird song and dance rework when shes A) the third most popular caster at ATC and B) the only weak part of her card is her feat and that can be fixed. If PP wants the feat to measure 14" they just have to edit the text. Purification is already very strong and will not get buffed further. i've had great casts of purification on harby, and kreoss just having it means certain upkeep forms of steady wont protect people from his feat. its a toolbox kreoss can reach into and pull it out. Not a main gameplan.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jan 11, 2018 13:07:17 GMT
not really since shes mostly an infantry caster and shouldnt be using a lot of jacks anyway, and if she is using jacks theyre going to be jacks like the devout or vigilant which will always be near her anyway. I dont think ive ever needed a warjack to be 20" away from her before. 14" works just as good for her purposes. since martyrdom would go from CMD to CTRL its actually more of a buff for her because she can stay farther away and martyrdom. and its a huge buff for her feat as well. she would gain way more than she loses. Liking your own post is kinda sad... However, i would rather harby keep her 20" purification than ruin her unique mechanic of being the highest focus caster in the game. I'd rather they just buff her feat. thats all she needs. she doesnt need martyrdom buffed in range (although she'd appreciate it). Having her be Foc 7 and gaining 3 is just having her become nemo1. Anytime people run upkeeps on their warcaster like Road to War/Warpath or any number of upkeeps, Harby can safely knock it off without ever exposing herself. Kreoss1 finds purification harder to use because he has to get within 14" of the enemy caster... Theres quite a lot of threatening models who have 14"+ threats whether that be guns, spells, or they just have long melee threats and on top of that, warcasters are not usually on the front line. i strongly disagree you have to go through this whole weird song and dance rework when shes A) the third most popular caster at ATC and B) the only weak part of her card is her feat and that can be fixed. If PP wants the feat to measure 14" they just have to edit the text. Purification is already very strong and will not get buffed further. i've had great casts of purification on harby, and kreoss just having it means certain upkeep forms of steady wont protect people from his feat. its a toolbox kreoss can reach into and pull it out. Not a main gameplan. Also don't forget magic attack 10. It's kind of annoying that they got rid of autohitting spells with that kind of absurd stat anyway, but those times I've cast rebuke it's been a real comfort.
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blakeh1
Junior Strategist
Posts: 181
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Post by blakeh1 on Jan 11, 2018 16:46:30 GMT
Doesn't Harbinger's current feat effect any model that ends in her cmd range closer than they began, even if they didn't begin in CMD range? (at least that's the way I played it)
It's been a long time since I played her, but in early MK III, even at 10" I thought her feat was still pretty punishing in the few games I played with her around the time, especially in scenario play
They should not change her FOC stat.
If anything Purification really should change to ignore friendly upkeeps
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
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Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jan 11, 2018 18:09:18 GMT
You're right. The issue is that those 10 inches don't protect harbinger from ranged attacks, don't keep extra attacks from hitting her army (which is likely to be along those 10 inches), can be shrugged off by many of the more threatening opponents, and is fire damage to open up an extra weakness. Note that zone denial requires her to be IN the zone, which is exceptionally far up for a caster that is large base, 14/14, and typically hanging around at half HP. Harbinger is basically my main caster, but the feat has only been genuinely useful a few times since starting mk 3.
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khobai
Junior Strategist
Posts: 108
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Post by khobai on Jan 11, 2018 19:39:15 GMT
They nerfed her feat to 10" for a reason. Youre not getting longer range on her feat unless youre willing to give something up in exchange. FOC10 has to go; its the whole reason they nerfed her feat in the first place.
Id rather have her be FOC7+3 with a 14" feat, 14" martyrdom, and a shorter range version of purification that only affects enemy upkeeps and friendly continuous effects.
It also significantly buffs Kreoss1's purification to the point where its actually useful.
To me thats way better.
You dont think PP realized that when they made it 10"? They couldve made her feat 12" or 14" back then if they wanted to. They didnt. They chose to make it 10".
Her feat will never be 12" or 14" as long as shes FOC10. That is what Ive been trying to tell you. You have to give up something to gain something.
Again its not gonna happen unless you give up something in return. The whole reason Purification doesnt ignore friendly upkeeps because of Harbinger's 20" range. If you reduced her range to 14" then Purification could be changed to ignore friendly upkeeps and ignore continuous effects on enemy models.
Balance is about making compromises. Unless a model is underpowered, which Harbinger isnt, you cant expect to gain something without giving up something in return.
That's why if we want a better purification, it needs to come at the cost of losing some of its range.
Nope. If her CTRL is reduced to 14", Purification can be buffed further.
And I would argue it needs to be buffed further so Kreoss1 doesnt kill his own upkeeps which is counter-intuitive design.
Its not all about Harbinger. Its also about making purification less miserable for Kreoss1 to use.
Again its part of the finer points of balancing. Giving something up to gain something else.
Again not really. Shes mostly an infantry caster. Typically the only jacks people take with her are ones that stay next to her anyway. So the loss of ctrl area is insignificant with regard to warjacks. You dont play your Devout or Vigilant 20" away from her.
And the loss of range on purification also means purification gets buffed especially for Kreoss1. Im fine with that.
Giving her FOC7+3 helps balance that out better as well. With 10 focus its not a big deal if she has to boost to hit with rebuke.
FOC10 is part of the whole problem with Harbinger and why she cant have nicer things.
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Post by mydnight on Jan 11, 2018 20:20:39 GMT
Okay don't want this to devolve into another 'hey khobai' thread, but hey khobai, you're saying all this as if PP never made any mistake and never 'overnerfed something' before.
Most CID items DO NOT have to 'trade off' to be improved. They just get straight buffs.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jan 11, 2018 20:35:55 GMT
I set him to mute and ignored his posts. No matter what anyone says to him they're wrong.
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draycos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 167
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Post by draycos on Jan 11, 2018 20:56:47 GMT
So Focus 10 is a Gimmick. But it's the main reason I have interest in playing Harbinger. I like the gimmick of having a 10 focus caster that plays a heavy support role. I like that her game-play requires her to stay way back to be safe. Even with a 7+3 thing going on... It just doesn't feel the same.
I will admit i'd like all of her Command Based abilities to gain a little more distance (feat included?). But, I'm not sure it's necessary either. The feat does need a ton of work though.
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Choco
Junior Strategist
Gorten, best feet in the game.
Posts: 571
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Post by Choco on Jan 11, 2018 21:30:22 GMT
What about this suggestion:
- Her feat changes back to her control area, but turns into a POW 10 or 12 damage roll (that is boostable?). *and* - Martyrdom gets extended to her control area for the round.
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Post by killroundears on Jan 11, 2018 21:32:10 GMT
You're right. The issue is that those 10 inches don't protect harbinger from ranged attacks, don't keep extra attacks from hitting her army (which is likely to be along those 10 inches), can be shrugged off by many of the more threatening opponents, and is fire damage to open up an extra weakness. Note that zone denial requires her to be IN the zone, which is exceptionally far up for a caster that is large base, 14/14, and typically hanging around at half HP. Harbinger is basically my main caster, but the feat has only been genuinely useful a few times since starting mk 3. the other weakness her current feat has is it isn't magical damage, so incorporeal models don't care
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Provengreil
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Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jan 11, 2018 22:29:29 GMT
You're right. The issue is that those 10 inches don't protect harbinger from ranged attacks, don't keep extra attacks from hitting her army (which is likely to be along those 10 inches), can be shrugged off by many of the more threatening opponents, and is fire damage to open up an extra weakness. Note that zone denial requires her to be IN the zone, which is exceptionally far up for a caster that is large base, 14/14, and typically hanging around at half HP. Harbinger is basically my main caster, but the feat has only been genuinely useful a few times since starting mk 3. the other weakness her current feat has is it isn't magical damage, so incorporeal models don't care That too, but it's a pretty cornercase need in POM. Sanctifiers are a regular addition to her lists in my case, since that focus 10 goes fast, and it's rarely dead quite that early.
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