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Post by oranjejus on Jan 9, 2018 3:15:43 GMT
Being a steadfast student of pain, it's time to up my game a bit and move up a base size.
The problem: anecdotal evidence, water cooler conversations, and local tourney observation shows that Gargantuans are not worth the opportunity cost that comes with their points.
The solution: ignore all such misgivings and get into it because the models are great. It is, after-all, why I play Skorne in the first place.
However, that's not really a great solution on it's own and I'm reaching out to you all for a little bit extra of a leg-up. Essentially I have very limited time to play and while I got most of the way to where I am now via trial and error, I have even less opportunity to play than normal for perhaps another 6 months.
One pre-ordered Dracodile later and as he sits on the conversion table (being Skornified) I realise I have absolutely no idea how to field something this..... visible. Having heard of some locals who deploy Hydra, then put Hydra back in the bag a couple of turns later a lot, I would appreciate a bit of how-to-get-started-with-Gargantuans advice.
NB: I'm curious about Skorne Gargantuans in general here, even tho my first foray is with the least flexible in terms of caster.
P.S. I may be diabolically planning to confront a local Minions player with it as a surprise.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Jan 9, 2018 4:00:22 GMT
I like all our Gargs, they're just all too expensive. Like 4-6 points too expensive.
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Post by gobber on Jan 9, 2018 8:11:16 GMT
I've played around with it in minions; here's what I'm thinking for skorne:
Morghoul2 Dracodile Gladiator Agonizer Free: Mortitheurge, Task Master Croak Raiders 2x Razorback Crew 2x Farrow Valkyries Min Beast handlers
Morg2's flesh hooks/feat preventing charges combos nicely with floodwaters limiting the threat range of non-pathfinder models, and then there's agonizer debuff. Incorp is never bad to have around for a rushed dracodile. 6 shield guards for the dracodile, floodwaters for raiders, and plentiful sac pawns for the paingivers provide good shooting defenses. The advance deploying, repositioning Raider/Razorback gunline shreds targets painted with blind or mortality. Valkyries with task master buff (which sadly doesn't apply to point blank) average 9.5 damage each into a mortalitied khador heavy for some extra melee presence. Mortitheurge has great puppet master targets in the dracodile spray, valkyrie crit knockdowns, and razorbacks.
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Jan 9, 2018 9:30:20 GMT
if you are going to play morgoul2 I would try to get a blindwaker in the list
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Post by killroundears on Jan 9, 2018 13:26:57 GMT
The problem gargossals have in general is they're a great target for buffs, but they're also an incredible target for debuffs, and for your opponents heaviest hitters, for example a bronzeback can be serious overkill vs say, a crusader, but vs a colossal? every attack will be milked.
Usually the way lists gain best value out of a gargossal is by having a way to protect it, and for it to contribute constantly. A good example is a local player in my meta runs kreuger2 with the big magic monkey. its sacred ward, got a gun that terrifies infantry (an aoe 5 hazard!) and kreuger2 nerfs enemy shooting and has a spd debuff and push feat.
I've had a grim1 mountain king absolutely wreck me before due to my list taking -3 def, followed by -3spd and no charges which really cut down my ability to interact with that massive hunk of meat which was shooting an assault spray followed by a killshot, and it was just dropping whelps down ugh.
What you'll get from skorne is generally we cant protect gargs. there is at best, conditional protection. for example, morg2/3 can control infantry to protect a garg, but do almost nothing to stop jacks and beasts from carving it up. Morg1 can protect vs battlegroups etc.
Our gargs are also very subpar shooters, and shooting is very important to the value of a gargossal because if all they do is melee, its so easy for them to get destroyed. Thats why as much as i think the hydras animus is absolutely awesome, i don't like it because its best ranged output is a single SP10 per turn and this can never really be leveraged against enemy heavies since it will put the hydra firmly in threat range. the Mammoth being RAT 4 is pretty annoying. the dracodiles spray at least forces a jack/beast to drop some resources, but its real best value is against cavalry, infantry that is a pain to remove like cetrati, champs etc, and just generally the fact it'll mat buff itself on the charge vs heavies. Also assassination runs love a blind that comes from downfield.
of course, people tend to talk about "Competitively this, Competitively that" in regards to discussions so most likely what you'll see is in your local meta gargs will do better than the internet tells you they will do. Unless your meta is full of lists that do amazing vs your gargs.
so the TL:DR is skorne gargs don't really have the best place, tend to get outvalued by the proposition of just bringing 2 turtles in the place of 1 garg, but generally our gargs are fine to play and in a local meta you can both do well with them and have fun with them. i just don't expect a skorne list featuring a garg to take a tournament, or the competitive meta by storm without a release that allows it to overcome its inherent weaknesses.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Jan 10, 2018 10:06:45 GMT
as far as huge base sizes, it's best to start off with battle engines, for sure.
the biggest issue with huge based models is actually the fact that they are on huge bases and must follow huge based rules. They are easy to target, easy to hit, and warjacks/beasts worth 18+ pts can one round the majority of them. (of course they can 1 round everything else too but we'll ignore that fact) If you aren't taking advantage of their huge base size than their points are always best spent otherwise.
Though the trollblood gargs is the ideal, our derp turtle is a great example of "when you know how to use it." Due to its superior speed, it can quickly take board space while shooting 12 inches in front of it. Use them to contest MULTIPLE zones and shield models behind them with their large bodies.
As far as Skorne gargs go, the hydra is an infantry slaughtering machine, but it will always be 1 rounded by any opponent that's faced it before. The 10 inch spray is AWESOME and getting off the 5 smaller sprays is even greater, but you can heal about half his health in 1 turn, making him an immediate target on the alpha. His animus is also extremely great at denying range but, once again, his huge base size and low def just makes him a perfect target. I do not have much experience with the Mammoth but I hear that it is hardier than the hydra and has more validity due to basically being a tetsubo with 2 clubs and 2 cannons on his back x.O;
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Post by oranjejus on Jan 10, 2018 22:09:52 GMT
Great points thanks peeps. It reaffirms my assumptions that the opportunity cost is too large to be competative, and - at least for now - I'm not taking the Draco into a tourney (I've single listed Titan herds run by Xekaar before so.....) I'm still gonna drop him to the table, but considering the length of time we had to play unthemed against the field and still engineer wins, I'm pretty comfortable with the underdog status. Especially in the casual matchup, where that status evaporates like exhaled droplets of alcohol upon your breath. As I see it - none of the casters can meaningfully buff his defense to make him tough enough to survive a targeted alpha. So I need 1 of 2 things: Get the alpha myself to begin the trade favourably, or prevent the enemy alpha from being focused enough to take him out. Now, while he can't survive the targeted alpha, there's some incidental ranged mitigation available - ignoring shield guards etc the cheapest options: Morghoul3 - Stealth. 'nuff said, every round. Assumption corrected. Naaresh + Krea - Blur + Force Aura = DEF 15 ARM 22 every round. Alternatively, there's also some level of melee mitigation: Xekaar + Aggy - Feat + Agony = DEF 13 ARM 25, but only for 1 round. Naaresh + Aggy - Feat + Agony = DEF 10 ARM 25, but only for 1 round. None of those really stand out as anything better than "average" and although I've had huge success with the Xekaar + Aggy combo defensive feat stuff.... (ok so when I say huge, I mean it worked hillariously well. Twice. And only when I got to do the alpha myself. Let's not talk about the failures.) Am I feeling Naaresh with a great big Dracodile? Actually, you know what? Yes I am. Let me look at this a bit further, but I think what I need here is a high-risk, high-laughs assassination list. Perhaps, and bear with me here, the Dracodile is the bait that opens the hole to get some Naaresh cyclone assassination action going on. Edit: Disclaimer - Naaresh is still in his blister, as is Morghoul1, 2, and 3. But I do have them all on the shelf.
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Post by oranjejus on Jan 10, 2018 22:20:35 GMT
Thanks for the list idea gobber. Would require too much spend on models I cannot see myself using elsewhere (razorbacks and a 2nd Valks) but does haves pieces I intend to get .... one day (croaks and 1 unit of Valks.) For now, I don't think I'll try that one out just yet
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Jan 10, 2018 23:19:10 GMT
Morghoul3 - Stealth. 'nuff said, every round. Gargantuan's have the base rule Great Beast This prevents them from gaining AD, incorporeal, or stealth
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Post by oranjejus on Jan 11, 2018 0:34:06 GMT
Thanks granor, fixed. Assumption came from the stealthed war tortoise - had referenced the huge base rules only. Missed that there were extras for the Gargantuans.
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Post by Cryptix on Jan 16, 2018 4:37:22 GMT
I like having Naaresh's blur on the Hydra to get it to DEF 12 ARM 19, which is pretty survive able vs ranged, and I use scarab packs to screen against melee.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Jan 16, 2018 16:40:29 GMT
though I like the scarab pack idea, you really are kind of making the required point hole on the board that much deeper. Of course, you ARE making him last for another turn and even might give him an alpha, but remember that you need to spend points on the scarab pack now as well, making the base number come to 48, the equivalent of 3 Aradi
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Post by oranjejus on Jan 18, 2018 1:15:33 GMT
My "masterpiece" being assembled thanks to this thread:
Naaresh1 - Disciples - Dracodile - Archidon - Archidon
Saxon Orrik Master Tormentor (free) Master Tormentor (free) Task Master
max Brigands + CA Bloodrunners Bloodrunners max Beast Handlers
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Post by polydox on Jan 26, 2018 2:21:00 GMT
yeah I'd say best bet is with Naaresh. I like the idea of using the drac as bait too but you could rework the list a bit and essentially make him super obnoxious to kill. you drop the CA off brigands, drop a tormentor, and drop one archidon. replace with krea and an aggy. like you said def 15 vs shooting, arm 22 vs everything, they have to have pathfinder to get to you, and for giggles you spray and blind anything that can reach him forcing them to waste focus/fury on shaking.
so your opponent has a few options. spend a lot of energy brute forcing him down, try and ignore him and counter assassinate, try and kill all the support first which will put a lot of their units in precarious locations.
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Post by gobber on Jan 26, 2018 7:26:42 GMT
yeah I'd say best bet is with Naaresh. I like the idea of using the drac as bait too but you could rework the list a bit and essentially make him super obnoxious to kill. you drop the CA off brigands, drop a tormentor, and drop one archidon. replace with krea and an aggy. like you said def 15 vs shooting, arm 22 vs everything, they have to have pathfinder to get to you, and for giggles you spray and blind anything that can reach him forcing them to waste focus/fury on shaking. so your opponent has a few options. spend a lot of energy brute forcing him down, try and ignore him and counter assassinate, try and kill all the support first which will put a lot of their units in precarious locations. Brigs definitely want the CA otherwise the croaks are way better for a point more, which could be found by minning the handlers as you don't need six for that small of a battlegroup. Croaks also gain concealment from the Dracodile's animus and take better advantage of the task master's abilities (which brigs already have). Alternatively, double valkyries for shield guard+sac pawn hilarity on top of all those defensive stats.
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