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Post by pac on Dec 26, 2017 18:16:16 GMT
I'm sure the AKs are going to get a CID eventually, but for now, they're barely worth the points. My initial thought, because they're in the WGK theme, but don't get the benefits of the list, is why not give them the sub type Winter Guard?
The first benefit I'll talk about is a minor one, Sorscha 2 gives them a speed boost with Desperate Pace. Range 21 Assault is fun.
The second minor benefit is Sac Pawn from theme which is nice.
The obvious major benefit is Joe. +2 to hit can boost them up to 8 or 9 with Strakhov 1. +4 to strength makes their charges at 13, same as pikemen. And tough is always good.
I think this will bring their play up a lot but may create an instance where their points need to be increased.
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Post by AdeptusB on Dec 26, 2017 18:24:27 GMT
Rather than a stop-gap fix, I'd like to see them get a dedicated Theme that provides some characterful benefits. My 2 cents...
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Post by pac on Dec 26, 2017 18:54:17 GMT
I like the idea of a theme force special for them, but what would you include in it, benefits and models?
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Post by auraco on Dec 26, 2017 20:36:45 GMT
Not sure their point would need to go up if they could be affected by joe's speech, they are already very expansive for a low pow low volume of attack unit... That they do not interact with the bonus of WGK is just the final nail in their coffin.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Dec 27, 2017 1:28:48 GMT
What auraco said. 26 points for one AK boat with Joe? For 1/4 of your army the package had best be good and for the points I’d say it’d be “an option” to consider with the WG theme. Not overpowered, and it would open up some additional builds, especially if you were teching Cryx (and we could use that). So, yes, I like this option a lot and hope hit happens.
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Post by onijet01 on Dec 27, 2017 5:03:24 GMT
Are they really so bad that you need joe to make them good. Or Strokhov 1?
A couple of missed points from this page (no disrespect intended) 1. With brutal charge the p+s of their weapon is 11, so adding joe to the charge makes then a p+s 15. 2. They are a very reliable unit at their mat/rat value. 3. They can denie tough at a average threat range of 16 inches from their start and sit sheild walled at armor 18. 4. Sheild walled armor 18 troopers with immunity to fire and corrosive. 5. Ignores cloud shinanigans for blocking line of sight.
Okay alot of poibts at 10/16 with 2pt weapon attachments, but really? I get the idea behind the wanting them to be better but ill go so far as to say they really just need tough built in at most.
On a related note.
Ever try them as a front line unit with Strokhov 2? He gives them the following options.
1. Reposition 5* 2. A possible +2 armor buff with immunity to push/slams 3. A +2 speed/def (vs ranged attack) spell 4. Last stand (yah they die after attacking but) additional die on both melee atack and damage. Again not so good for assult kommandos. 5. A +3 armor feat that brings tough and immunity to shooting while knocked down.
Overall id say the warcaster makes or breaks a unit more than a theme.
*note: under Strokhov 2 Assult kommandos can be..defencive In shield wall order sitting at arm 21 under feat, at defence 14 vs shooting and advancing 8 inches to open firw with range 10 guns, only to finnaly reposition 5 inches to ready for another attack.
Or offensive Charging in under last stand and using overtake tactical ability being speed 8 base (hate .5 melee) rolling 3 dice to hit and 4 dice on damage at p+s11 melee if trying to kill key targets.
Again thats just one casters opptions on them and yes they can work for winte rguard to but at their stats wont help much. (Maybe last stand on min unit under joe is a option into models.)
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Post by Blargaliscious on Dec 27, 2017 6:37:20 GMT
Not sure their point would need to go up if they could be affected by joe's speech, they are already very expansive for a low pow low volume of attack unit... That they do not interact with the bonus of WGK is just the final nail in their coffin. I'm just thinking of the image of a unit of Assault Kommandos sneaking across a battlefield to storm a trench while some big Kovnik is bellowing patriotic speeches at them. "NOW YOU BOYS SNEAK ACROSS AND KILL THOSE TRENCHERS FOR THE EMPRESS AND YOUR FELLOW COUNTRYMEN. QUIETLY SLIP IN AND DELIVER THE KILL STROKE SO THAT THEY NEED TO BE DELIVERED HOME IN BODY BAGS AND NOT ON THEIR FEET FOR THE EVER-LIVING GLORY OF THE MOTHERLAND!!!" We know that the AK are slated to get a command attachment. I could easily see them getting a Kovnik command solo of some kind, maybe also a sapper squad, scouts to mark targets, and whatever else PP decides to flesh them out into a semi-independent force or interest adjunct to the Winter Guard.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Dec 27, 2017 12:35:51 GMT
Literally any warrior unit would be better if they become winter guard type.
AK would be great with Joe. Pow 15 charges against heavies or mat/rat 8 assaults against infantry. Every wgk list would start with AKs+Joe.
Otherwise 2 things need to happen before I play them. Count for free points in wgk and flamethrower guys gain assault. I tried them a lot and they simply don't cut it otherwise.
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Post by borderprince on Dec 27, 2017 15:05:28 GMT
I'm not sure about becoming Winter Guard being enough to make them worth fielding in place of WG units, but it would be a big help. AKs are an expensive unit for what they bring. They have a lot of abilities, but most of them only matter if your opponent brings models that their tech is useful against. That's different to a unit like Trenchers, who ask questions, even outside their combat capability (Can you handle a smoke wall? What about blast-immune models in cover? Tough?). AKs answer quite a few questions, but that only matters if those questions are asked. If they aren't asked, you've just got a decent (but not great) combat unit, which often has less output per point that WGRC/WGI.
Their one question is higher ARM, especially in shield wall. But AK's ARM isn't that high, no better than Iron Fangs (who also have much better melee output) and not high enough to protect reliably against lots of shooting. Most lists in Mk3 have to be able to handle ARM18 or so.
If they counted for free points in WGK, even if they weren't WG typed, I'd consider them in an ADR context. Being able to drop in a unit with immunities against Protectorate and Legion would be a big deal. If AKs were also Sac Pawn targets in theme, they'd definitely be helpful in those match-ups and seriously worth considering. Iron Flesh casters might also like having a unit which can get to a decent level of ARM in theme in some games. But if they don't count for free points they really mess up list-building in theme in ADR.
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Post by auraco on Dec 27, 2017 19:45:28 GMT
The problem with the AK against legion is that while they are good at not dying against their shooting, they are still terrible a killing anything in legion, typical flying circus list are not scared of AK, neither is the throne and the throne can easily kill a lot of AK.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Dec 27, 2017 20:15:11 GMT
The thing with AKs is that they don't have a niche right now. Literally everything you mention is better with/done by another unit: I rather give Repo 5 to a unit with Rockets. I rather give an Arm Buff to any flavor of Iron Fangs or Shock Troopers. If I need to negate Tough at range I rather use Widowmakers. Only immunity worth a crap right now is Electric. And we can counter a cloud wall with our own cloud wall.
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Post by onijet01 on Dec 27, 2017 21:07:11 GMT
The thing with AKs is that they don't have a niche right now. Literally everything you mention is better with/done by another unit: I rather give Repo 5 to a unit with Rockets. I rather give an Arm Buff to any flavor of Iron Fangs or Shock Troopers. If I need to negate Tough at range I rather use Widowmakers. Only immunity worth a crap right now is Electric. And we can counter a cloud wall with our own cloud wall. Lets open the discussion then? Pick a unit min or max and guarantee i can show statistically why Assult Komandoes are just as good. (And if im proven wrong i will freely admit it.) So first unit?
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Dec 27, 2017 22:18:56 GMT
The thing with AKs is that they don't have a niche right now. Literally everything you mention is better with/done by another unit: I rather give Repo 5 to a unit with Rockets. I rather give an Arm Buff to any flavor of Iron Fangs or Shock Troopers. If I need to negate Tough at range I rather use Widowmakers. Only immunity worth a crap right now is Electric. And we can counter a cloud wall with our own cloud wall. Lets open the discussion then? Pick a unit min or max and guarantee i can show statistically why Assult Komandoes are just as good. (And if im proven wrong i will freely admit it.) So first unit? You need to prove that they are better. Just as good is not good enough. Not when theme benefits and synergies are tied to descriptors they don't have.
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Post by onijet01 on Dec 27, 2017 23:07:31 GMT
Lets open the discussion then? Pick a unit min or max and guarantee i can show statistically why Assult Komandoes are just as good. (And if im proven wrong i will freely admit it.) So first unit? You need to prove that they are better. Just as good is not good enough. Not when theme benefits and synergies are tied to descriptors they don't have. No you need to prove that the other options are better. Burden of proof lies on your topics side. So again prove to me the other units outshine them or are their benifits lost to the hord? As i said ill discuss them but so far no one has stated why they are bad outside of "not getting free points in theme" So give it a try and open discussion.
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Post by lovehugs on Dec 28, 2017 0:32:31 GMT
Just look at what plays you could pull off if you played everything that affected them being WG.
Scorscha 2. Gives desperate pace to Assault Kommandos, and Iron Flesh. Then casts Boundless Charge. That's some pretty quick troops.
Then you've got Jozef. When they decide to charge in, if you're going up against some single wound Arm 14 guys, give them tough to survive the counter attack. Best part is, on the charge, fire off some strangle gas so the enemy loses tough,while you get to keep it because you ignore your own gas effect.
Charging a warjack? Or even better, a beast/Ceph monstrousity. 4 Str is ok. Added on top of Gas on a charge, feels a little strong against Hordes. Let's be honest, how many times have we crippled a beasts spirit only for them to heal it 1 point and then the warlock channels a spell or the beast uses some animus to give it snacking, by the end of the turn it's up 10boxes. Not with gas they don't.
Your Also looking at +32 points towards free units and two extra advance moves on warjacks for what you essentially make a wall/screen for your rockets.
Throwing up a shield wall in front of all your rockets seems pretty strong especially with tough. Between being able to have Iron Flesh Arm20 tough, immune fire/corrosion/blast
I'd say these three casters would like AK's to be Winter Guard the most.
Scorscha2 fast 2 Furious. Irusk1d6+6 Charge Dmg. Irusk 2 tough AK's also ^^
And also, stopping beasts from healing. If that ain't a niche for AK's, name some more Khador units that do it.
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