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Post by greytemplar on Dec 22, 2017 5:39:09 GMT
Bastions either need to get their 8 boxes back OR gain Impervious Flesh since without either they simply cannot use Sanguine bond effectively. Going back to P+S12 wouldn't hurt either. PP just doesn't get basic physics and how halberds actually work(Levers people, Levers!!!). Halberds hit harder than swords.
Blessed might be technically thematic for an Exemplar theme, but it's boring and lame. Either no jack benefit at all, or a more interesting one. Like "All friendly faction heavy warjacks in this list gain Accumulator[Exemplar]" or all jack's gain Righteous Vengeance. Those would be both thematic and useful.
Errant's, and the bloated plethora of solos who accompany them, need to go back to their Mk2 selves by shuffling around the benefits a bit. Purity needs to no longer be a mini-feat, and not dispel friendly spells too. Errant Seneschal should trade Leadership Unyielding for Leadership Assault, and UA gains Tactics[Unyielding]. Elias Gade should change his Leadership[Errants] Errants gain Pathfinder to Elite Cadre[Errants] Errant models in this army gain Pathfinder. Also, reduce the cost of the errant unit by 2 points to 8/14 and the UA down to 3.
This would make the various support solos for Errant's more optional, and make the unit more appropriately costed for their new abilities. They should be cheaper than Idrians because they are worse than Idrians. The full support for 1 unit of Errants makes them almost as expensive as 1.5 units of Idrians with UAs. And that's before you think about the Covenant and Rhupert.
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Post by Cryptix on Dec 22, 2017 17:51:31 GMT
Elite Cadre Errant's could actually happen because of what happened to Slaughterborn.
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Post by chillychinaman on Dec 22, 2017 17:59:00 GMT
Reading some of these suggestions across this thread is painful. If this is what you're expecting you're in for a severe disappointment when CID rolls around. I'm asking honestly, if these ideas are wildly off-base, then what are your expected changes as well as your ideal changes? I don't know about you, but to me, it seems like outside of Knights and Vengers the rest of the theme is fairly lacking in usability. Most them might not be outright bad, but they aren't particularly special or useful. I'll take the heavy infantry as a starting example. Have anyone recently used them? What did they succeed in doing? Was it their "intended" role? What did they fail at doing? Were they expected to fail in that given situation? For the Exemplar units, I see the following as their intended "roles" within the theme force: Errants-Vanguard, Skirmishers, and Objective Holders Vengers-Spearhead, Fast Outflankers Bastions-Objective Holders? Cinerators-Counter punch? Knights-Low Cost and Powerful Weapon Master
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Post by Azuresun on Dec 22, 2017 18:53:35 GMT
Reading some of these suggestions across this thread is painful. If this is what you're expecting you're in for a severe disappointment when CID rolls around. It’s more about coming together and figuring out as a community what we think is a good direction to go before CiD drops. Well probably only have a 2 week cycle so it’s gonna be pretty quick. Wishlisting does tend to produce really out there requests though. I'm fairly sure if it was left to the community, every model in the game would have Armour Piercing, Carapace and Impervious Flesh by now.
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Post by regabond on Dec 22, 2017 18:55:55 GMT
Incoming wall of thoughts. I’ve got two major options I’ve been thinking of. The first is more of an overhaul on some of the units/models. While the second is a very straight forward point reduction. Also thoughts on theme.
Theme:
If there MUST be a benefit for jacks, then what about this? For each Errant solo, a light jack gains Pathfinder and is considered an Exemplar. For each other Exemplar solo a heavy jack gains Unyielding is considered an Exemplar.
I wouldn’t mind seeing the +2” Deployment benefit either get changed to only providing Carapace to all Exemplars for the first turn or providing Carapace AND the +2” Deployment. This will help Exemplars feel a little safer as they slowly run across the field and come under ranged fire. Fluff-wise this can be seen has their divine prayers and energies coalescing into this divine protection on their approach.
Option 1
This options has quite a few drastic changes, but I think at least our heavy infantry need some drastic changes to set them apart from Knight Exemplar.
Bastions would go back to their old hard hitting selves and become more offensive. Sanguine Bond is near useless with 5 HP each, so it really isn’t needed. Let’s get creative instead of just asking for 8 HP back. That’s where Ancient Shroud comes into play. It provides survivability from the really hard hitting things in the game, but no more defense vs the moderate to lower POW attacks. They will go back to being annoying to remove, while still having a better chance of being delivered. The Bastion Seneschal adds to the aggression of the Bastions by providing a movement/charge buff. Ancient Shroud on the Bastion Seneschal insures he sticks around, but his HP might need to be reduced down to 5.
Cinerators have giant shields. Let’s make them the obviously defensive focused heavy infantry. Wall of Steel will bump them into the very hard to kill trivially range, while also forcing the small unit to stay paired or bunched up. The addition of Rapid Strike turns them into infantry mulching machines. While the drastic POW drop removes them from the anti-heavy role. Rapid Strike also helps apply the Fire affect to more than 1 target. Vengeance would not be removed to give them a little bit of added mobility and the extra attack meant for infantry clearing.
Exemplar Errants are basically fine where they’re at currently. They could possibly take a point decrease, but that’s a hard one to decide on. The UA on the other hand needs something. Its biggest issue is the dubious use of the new Purity ability. This change would not remove the possibility of getting hit with offensive spells, but it would be a heavy deterrent for your opponent. It’s more interesting to have a hard to affect model than it is to have a 100% denial model. DEF 16 base vs spells means casters will tend to need to boost to hope to hit and any other DEF buff makes them extremely hard to touch directly with spells. ARM 20 vs spells puts them in the same situation where POW 12 spells will really need to be boosted to have any effect on them. The double-edged sword of Purity can remain so that hitting errants with your own offensive spells which require a roll, would still go up against their higher DEF and ARM. It also adds the interesting effect of being able to lob AOE spells into the middle of them without concern for their safety. If the Errant Seneschal needs anything, it’s relatively minor. Maybe adding Tough to Errants provides the reasoning for its current cost.
Bastions: Remove Sanguine Bond. Add Ancient Shroud. Add 1 to weapon POW.
Bastion Seneschal: Remove Leadership. Add Desperate Pace [Bastions]. Add Ancient Shroud.
Cinerators: Add Rapid Strike. Reduce weapon POW by 3. Add Wall of Steel.
Knight Exemplar: No change.
Knight Exemplar UA: No change.
Knight Exemplar Seneschal: No change.
Exemplar Errants: No change. They feel solid where they are at.
Exemplar Errant UA: Change Purity to provide +4 DEF and +4 ARM vs all spells and animi. Purity also becomes a permanent ability instead of a once a game use.
Exemplar Errant Seneschal: Add Leadership [Errants] Tough.
Exemplar Warder Elias Gade: No change. This model seems to function great. The Errant benefit is a little weird, but functions well enough.
Vengers: No change? They feel a little on the weaker side of a balanced unit, but I’m not sure if that warrants any changes. Maybe they drop a point?
Rhoven: No Change.
Option 2
This option is rather different than I’ve seen anyone suggest. This is based on the idea that the models’ rules are fine, or fine enough, and it’s just the points cost is too high for what we’re getting. The idea here is that our heavy infantry are effectively just a different but similar unit to the Knight Exemplars. If that’s the case, then why should they be 7 points more expensive when they’re really just trading some rather serious cons and marginally useful pros. At a drastically reduced point cost, they won’t perform any better, but they won’t put the burden of your entire list on them either. They will survive unboosted POW 10s better than Knight Exemplar, but still die at the same speed vs charges or boosted or high damage shooting.
This can be expanded out to Exemplar Errants. With the slight reduction in cost, they will be considered more in both their Errant boat form, but also with just splashing Errants into a list without the support. The Errant Seneschal and the UA both really seem over costed for what they bring to the table.
Bastions: Lower points cost to 12.
Bastion Seneschal: Lower points cost to 5.
Cinerators: Lower points cost to 12.
Knight Exemplar: No change.
Knight Exemplar UA: No change.
Knight Exemplar Seneschal: No change.
Exemplar Errants: No change. They feel solid where they are at. Maybe lower 1 point in cost.
Exemplar Errant UA: Lower 1 point in cost.
Exemplar Errant Seneschal: Lower 1 point in cost.
Exemplar Warder Elias Gade: No change. This model seems to function great. The Errant benefit is a little weird, but functions well enough.
Vengers: No change? They feel a little on the weaker side of a balanced unit, but I’m not sure if that warrants any changes. Maybe they drop a point in cost?
Rhoven: No Change.
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Post by killroundears on Dec 22, 2017 23:53:33 GMT
you want to lower cinerator POW by 3?? why?? what a useless unit that would be at PS9 WM just bring errants lol
Bastions gaining ancient shroud wont happen either. its too strong. its only weak to deadly shot style effects. but a whole unit of bastions will require 25 damage rolls to take the unit out (+ however many times you miss) and any bastion that lives can receive healing from the battle engine or from their seneschal. Just imagine for a moment someone bringing two units of bastions (50 damage rolls required to wipe them before healing, before misses) and thats crazy because theres still like 70pts of army left lol
a lot of those point costings are real pipe dreams too. units that cost 12 are like.. Holy Zealots (11), Karax (11), Kossite woodsmen etc - basically non elite chaff units. having every other heavy infantry sitting at 15 to 17pts and Bastions and Cinerators sitting at 12 is not going to happen.
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Post by W0lfBane on Dec 23, 2017 3:08:25 GMT
Reading some of these suggestions across this thread is painful. If this is what you're expecting you're in for a severe disappointment when CID rolls around. I'm asking honestly, if these ideas are wildly off-base, then what are your expected changes as well as your ideal changes? I don't know about you, but to me, it seems like outside of Knights and Vengers the rest of the theme is fairly lacking in usability. Most them might not be outright bad, but they aren't particularly special or useful. I'll take the heavy infantry as a starting example. Have anyone recently used them? What did they succeed in doing? Was it their "intended" role? What did they fail at doing? Were they expected to fail in that given situation? For the Exemplar units, I see the following as their intended "roles" within the theme force: Errants-Vanguard, Skirmishers, and Objective Holders Vengers-Spearhead, Fast Outflankers Bastions-Objective Holders? Cinerators-Counter punch? Knights-Low Cost and Powerful Weapon Master In my opinion I think bastions should have defensive strike. Even though giving them 8 boxes would be lovely I don't think we'll get anything that nice anytime soon. And if menoth forbid we do get those 8 boxes I think that's all were getting for them. I think cinerators would appreciate wall of steel. Honestly I don't have a good idea for them. They are too slow. Errants: just give them sacred ward back on the UA. Purity is just meh. I honestly prefer quick work to assault but eh. They need an ability to encourage them to charge into mellee. The 9 inch bubble on Elias is annoying. Making it so that when you start your activation in in you get it would fix it for me. Or give him tactician so he doesn't block charge lanes. Theme....... Change 2" to give all non ad non cav exemplar advance move. Idk what to change blessed to. As for what I expect to happen. Base units don't change instead we get a bunch of stupid UAs WAs and solos to make exemplars great again and also a bunch of nerds cause every non menite will be like. Harby to strong nerf
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regleant
Junior Strategist
Sometimes things go right
Posts: 267
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Post by regleant on Dec 23, 2017 13:38:15 GMT
Reading some of these suggestions across this thread is painful. If this is what you're expecting you're in for a severe disappointment when CID rolls around. I don’t know man. Look at what Cryx got? Have you seen the Satixys?
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Post by chillychinaman on Dec 23, 2017 15:23:19 GMT
In my opinion I think bastions should have defensive strike. Even though giving them 8 boxes would be lovely I don't think we'll get anything that nice anytime soon. And if menoth forbid we do get those 8 boxes I think that's all were getting for them. I think cinerators would appreciate wall of steel. Honestly I don't have a good idea for them. They are too slow. Errants: just give them sacred ward back on the UA. Purity is just meh. I honestly prefer quick work to assault but eh. They need an ability to encourage them to charge into mellee. The 9 inch bubble on Elias is annoying. Making it so that when you start your activation in in you get it would fix it for me. Or give him tactician so he doesn't block charge lanes. Theme....... Change 2" to give all non ad non cav exemplar advance move. Idk what to change blessed to. As for what I expect to happen. Base units don't change instead we get a bunch of stupid UAs WAs and solos to make exemplars great again and also a bunch of nerds cause every non menite will be like. Harby to strong nerf I mean if you're baseline is to expect garbage and nerfs then we have no further need for discussion. As to your suggestions, 8boxes for Bastions, coupled with the return to Mk2 Sanguine Bond would put them back to where they used to, and should've been, an annoying to kill wall of faith. Would you settle for Leadership Defensive Strike from the Seneschal? Maybe with a point drop on either of them? I like your idea for Tactician on Elias. At this point I'm almost okay with dropping Purity altogether for innate Pathfinder. Wall of Steel while useful, would not help with their speed. Something like Boundless Charge would be nice, but they're probably just gonna get a UA with No Quarter.
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Post by W0lfBane on Dec 23, 2017 15:32:03 GMT
Reading some of these suggestions across this thread is painful. If this is what you're expecting you're in for a severe disappointment when CID rolls around. I don’t know man. Look at what Cryx got? Have you seen the Satixys? We're not crux. We don't get nice things.
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Post by W0lfBane on Dec 23, 2017 15:37:40 GMT
In my opinion I think bastions should have defensive strike. Even though giving them 8 boxes would be lovely I don't think we'll get anything that nice anytime soon. And if menoth forbid we do get those 8 boxes I think that's all were getting for them. I think cinerators would appreciate wall of steel. Honestly I don't have a good idea for them. They are too slow. Errants: just give them sacred ward back on the UA. Purity is just meh. I honestly prefer quick work to assault but eh. They need an ability to encourage them to charge into mellee. The 9 inch bubble on Elias is annoying. Making it so that when you start your activation in in you get it would fix it for me. Or give him tactician so he doesn't block charge lanes. Theme....... Change 2" to give all non ad non cav exemplar advance move. Idk what to change blessed to. As for what I expect to happen. Base units don't change instead we get a bunch of stupid UAs WAs and solos to make exemplars great again and also a bunch of nerds cause every non menite will be like. Harby to strong nerf I mean if you're baseline is to expect garbage and nerfs then we have no further need for discussion. As to your suggestions, 8boxes for Bastions, coupled with the return to Mk2 Sanguine Bond would put them back to where they used to, and should've been, an annoying to kill wall of faith. Would you settle for Leadership Defensive Strike from the Seneschal? Maybe with a point drop on either of them? I like your idea for Tactician on Elias. At this point I'm almost okay with dropping Purity altogether for innate Pathfinder. Wall of Steel while useful, would not help with their speed. Something like Boundless Charge would be nice, but they're probably just gonna get a UA with No Quarter. Those changes to the bastions you mention sound quite feasible . Errants are a mess and I feel the CID won't be long enough to sort out every thing with them so we need to concentrate on fixing purity and Elias pathfinder. Cinerators have vengeance so that helps them a little with increasing their speed. Maybe they need battle driven too to help survive as well. If we help their speed out I feel then they'll lose vengeance. So I'm thinking we make them a bit more survivable. Maybe they'll get a solo with desperate pace.
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Post by killroundears on Dec 23, 2017 21:23:12 GMT
i highly doubt leadership defensive strike will happen. Leadership retaliatory strike is possible but defensive strike is a lot better than retaliatory strike and a lot more powerful.
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Post by regabond on Dec 26, 2017 16:17:20 GMT
you want to lower cinerator POW by 3?? why?? what a useless unit that would be at PS9 WM just bring errants lol Bastions gaining ancient shroud wont happen either. its too strong. its only weak to deadly shot style effects. but a whole unit of bastions will require 25 damage rolls to take the unit out (+ however many times you miss) and any bastion that lives can receive healing from the battle engine or from their seneschal. Just imagine for a moment someone bringing two units of bastions (50 damage rolls required to wipe them before healing, before misses) and thats crazy because theres still like 70pts of army left lol a lot of those point costings are real pipe dreams too. units that cost 12 are like.. Holy Zealots (11), Karax (11), Kossite woodsmen etc - basically non elite chaff units. having every other heavy infantry sitting at 15 to 17pts and Bastions and Cinerators sitting at 12 is not going to happen. The point of the Cinerators would change into infantry clearing machines. They would have 2 attacks each and could still get their vengeance attack. The PS9 WM would be enough to kill most infantry and they would still cause cont fire on hit. Errants would be less durable but more versatile then these Cinerators. Ancient Shroud and 5 HP on Bastions is probably too much. Maybe their HP could be brought down to 3 each or they get some rule saying they can't take more than 2 or 3 damage from a single attack. The point here is to provide them with some durability without just adding more HP or more ARM. Knight Exemplar cost 9 points and you get 6 very hard hitting moderately armored, but easy to kill WM infantry. 12 points for 5 harder to hit but equallyish hard hitting infantry who can't hide behind small bases and don't gain pathfinder seems decently sane. The massive points reduction is of course a completely different option from changing any rules and stats on the models. Would you honestly say that Bastions/Cinerators would be worth taking at 14 points? Because I don't believe they are in the slightest. They just don't pull 14 points worth of work. 12 points seems a bit more reasonable at what they can currently do.
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Post by paradox on Dec 26, 2017 16:30:29 GMT
I mean, BOBP just went through a CID and got better. They are 7/11 cost, 13/15 5 wounds Tough on defensive stats. MAT6 PS13 Gang on offense, plus CRA drag guns. AKA, really damned good for super cheap.
Compare 11/16 bastions with no guns for 10/16 cost. They are severely overpriced.
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moquan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 193
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Post by moquan on Dec 26, 2017 18:08:34 GMT
BOBP?
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