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Post by streetpizza on Feb 2, 2018 16:27:23 GMT
Looks at Denny1's feat reducing armor and def on all enemy models (thus buffing even non FFMs) while also sporting crippling grasp and parasite, looks at current proposal for K2. Yep ... you're just wrong Mr.Horde. Also keep in mind Khador has those forge guys for power booster now. Vlad can S&P and run native P+S19 jacks just fine thanks. Also the pot only gives corpes to one model per turn and moves at speed 5. That's hardly going to buff a unit of ravagers into broken territory now is it? Feats are supposed to be good. Let this one have an impact and K2 will actually start to see play. So you feel Kromac should be able to buff as well as the ultimate debuffer? Silly comparison. You're comparing a squishy support caster to kromac. To feat denny1 is putting herself in a good position to get assassinated. She also depends hard on arc-nodes to debuff, and can only debuff 2 targets max. One target the first time you get into range. Which is 8". Shes also spending 6 of 7 focus each time she changes targets. Which means her jacks are doing very little. Secondly ghost fleet base is trash compared to ravagers. After all her buffs are on they're hitting ONCE for the same as you want ravagers to hit feat turn charge. Didn't say the pot pushes them into broken. The pot allows them to make second attacks. At the very least you'll get 2 turns out of it for 2-6 tokens. Then add in your free tokens on theme. You'll easily be able to guarantee your ravagers are attacking 12 times on feat turn. Even its the same 2 ravagers buying extra attacks.And your ravager can change targets and keep doing this damage. Ghost fleet can't. You guys keep comparing feat buffs in armies that only attack once a turn. Khador heavier at native 19 aren't that big of a deal. We run warpwolfs at native 17 that out range and out attack the juggernaught. Throw primal on it and you've got 6 attacks at 19 at 10" pathfinder threat range and one attack at 18. Makes 4 Max attacks at 19 and one at 15 look like garbage no? Even with s&p you're talking 41 damage on the feral versus 36 if signs gives +2 damage on every roll. And that's not counting charge dice for the feral who out threats the khador vastly. And then throw in kromas feat, and there isn't a war jack or beast who stands a chance. And you want our infantry to do the same. If you don't think str+2 and mat+2 and arm +2 on some of the hardest hitting heavier in the game is impactful then I don't know what is. Kromacs negatives are clearly in his spell list. Where he does very little to deliver said beasts. Which is why I suggested putting war path or mobility on him for his buff. He definitely needs something, I just think his feat going ffm is too much. But again. Play test it. Let me know how it goes and what your opponent thought. If you're going to offer it up in the cid the data can only help. There is so much wrong with this post ... I can't even. Oncoming already dealt with the understating of Denny's impact on the match so I'll just let that one lie but lets focus on this beauty: "And you want our infantry to do the same. If you don't think str+2 and mat+2 and arm +2 on some of the hardest hitting heavier in the game is impactful then I don't know what is. Kromacs negatives are clearly in his spell list. Where he does very little to deliver said beasts. Which is why I suggested putting war path or mobility on him for his buff. He definitely needs something, I just think his feat going ffm is too much." Yes I do think that +2 does do work but not enough to justify it being a feat compared to the power level of other feats and effects in the game. You call circle heavies the hardest hitting in the game but really that just means the stalker and Gehtorix as everything else is P+S 17 or lower which is par for the course. Those heavies are 19 and 21 pts respectively. With K2 they can each only manage a +4 swing max when primal is factored in meaning P+S 22 and 23. For 19 and 20 pts +feat + animus that causes frenzies that's actually pretty low. Let me contrast that for you with another 20 pt model. The Avatar of Menoth in faithfult masses under Durst (I just happen to be playing that right now so its fresh in my mind). He gets vengeance from a spell for +3 movement, gets boundless charge for another +2, gets +2mat and str when a model dies near him and gets a choir buff for +2 damage. When he arrives he'll have 4 focus (thanks vassals or good focus role). So I now have a 15" non linear threat range model with free charges that arrives with Mat 10 and P+S23 and five total attacks one with boosted damage. Tack on his gaze and native armor 21 and he's far outperforming anything Gehtorix or the stalker can do under Kromac. Also tack on that Durst didn't have to blow his feat to do that and can replicate the effect on cheaper jacks turn over turn (10pt crusader anybody?). Stalker and Gehtorix are 11" (13" with a landed hunters mark but note the avatar didn't need any abilities to land for him to get those buffs) Mat 8 or 9 P+S 22 and 23. Seems low for the investment when compared with the above example and I picked a cost comparitive model. It gets even worse when you look at the rest of protectorates cheaper jack stable or a better caster than Durst. So no Kromac's feat is not that impact full. In fact it barely registers as a feat especially given how lackluster his spell list is. As for it working on circle infantry, we are talking about the second worst infantry stable in the game just after legion so anything that can help them is welcome.
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Post by macdaddy on Feb 2, 2018 16:34:46 GMT
streetpizza I actually think a lot of the hate for legion infantry is over exaggerated. Have you ever seen them run double raptors or swordsman blobs? it gets pretty gros with how much damage they can do. Otherwise I agree with everything you said. Warpwolves are a far cry from the hardest hitting heavies in the game. They hit hard...when you apply primal...and lose them for an entire round...which is almost always never worth it IME.
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Post by streetpizza on Feb 2, 2018 17:36:50 GMT
Similarly we can do good things with double ravagers or double reeves. Matter of opinion on that one. Either way you slice it we're both on the bottom for infantry choices and that sucks.
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Post by forthehorde on Feb 3, 2018 0:23:30 GMT
Ghost fleet dies quite easily to circle actually. We have a theme that gives every warbeast RFP. Scarsfell from stealth could easily chase down the leader and RFP it. And we have anti infantry out the ass. At pow 10 they aren't exactly "insane swings" every turn. Pow 15 against 2 targets max, if her arc-nodes made it alive into range. And again, you're comparing SINGLE ATTACKS PER TURN units to multi attacks per turn units. On rat 4, 6 with the defense buff. Or 14 pow on the cutlass at .5 range mat 5(7). That's 10 attacks at the same price point you can get between 12 to 24 attacks at a farther range. Now banes are pretty brutal. They hit hard at around 16 per attack and with the debuffs could put a serious hurt on heavies. But they move at speed 5. Are defense 12, and are 1 inch reach. And since Denny can only debuff one or two targets a turn, for them to hit that hard they'd have to be focusing the same target. At 1 inch reach you're getting maybe 4-5 around a target. Assuming Denny can deliver them at all. Obviously Kromac has the same problem delivering Tharn. Which is a spell list problem.
And if you can purge her debuffs she's blowing 6 focus a turn. You guys keep comparing these warmachine casters to horde casters expecting them to be point for point. Warmachine needs their focus to use their heavies. Hordes do not. Normal jacks have 1 maybe 2 initials and 3 focus. Your average warbeast has 2-3 and 4 fury. You're talking 5 attacks versus 7 IF the caster has focus left to super power. If not, you need to buy empowers for 2-4 points a piece. That raises the cost of running your jacks effectively.
At your point, your model isn't 20 points. It's 20 + choir(4-6) + vassalsx2(6) both of which have to be standing within 3 inches of him to buff him. Standing right out in the open at 12/12. And his caster spends 4(3) of 6 focus on him a turn. Leaving him with little for his other jacks. So if you kill the units standing around him, but don't kill the entire unit, then yes he's hitting that hard and moving that far. So PS+23x5+extra die for charge. You would do around 54 damage to a 20 arm model. Ghetorix doing 16 + 19 + 4 extra attacks. Ends up doing 33 damage to a 20 arm model. Considerably less, but at a true 20 points, and zero cost to Kromacs fury. Which AGAIN leads more to a shitty spell list than feat. Now on feat turn, he's doing 18 21 +4 extra attacks. 47 damage to a 20 arm model on a true 20 point model zero resource cost to Kromac. Add the Gorax for 7 points for primal and he's doing 20-23 +4 extra at 27 points. 57 Damage. Still less points spent than the Avatar. And the avatar charging at 15" isn't getting buffed next round or empowered. Significantly cuts down next turns production. But so does primal. Killing the choir significantly drops his production, or killing the vassals. And to trigger his movement and buffs, you're killing these people. Choose not to kill the infantry by him, and he's not that big of a threat at all. His buffs are in the hands of your opponent.
But yes, I will agree Durst runs jacks better than Kromac runs beasts. Kromacs spell list needs an upgrade for sure. Now change Dursts feat to give +2 damage, armor and mat, to EVERYONE in his army. At a 14" +large base range. Still sound fair to you? And he can't even run good infantry in his theme. He's purely jacks.
I'd rather see Kromac get a better spell list and Tharns get their own buff, than have Kromacs feat be the "buff" for everyone. Again. Try it out, let us know what your opponents thought. And any other arguments keep in mind, focus is harder to spread out for buffs and jacks. You get more attacks with fury, and if a caster buffs their entire army, do they have multi attack infantry? If a caster has an awesome feat, what does their stat block look like? I like the comparison between Kromac and Durst because they have similar builds. Kromac obviously hits more and for harder. Maybe take the warbeast and living portion out of his feat and make it battlegroup specific, so Kromac himself can mulch at 60 damage during feat turn.
I'm telling you now though, I highly doubt they're going to rework his spell list, make his feat FFM AND buff the ravagers to a place where they'd be useful under any caster.
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Post by maplewhisky on Feb 3, 2018 0:48:55 GMT
Snacking doesn't RFP undead.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 3, 2018 0:59:37 GMT
Ghost fleet dies quite easily to circle actually. We have a theme that gives every warbeast RFP. Scarsfell from stealth could easily chase down the leader and RFP it. And we have anti infantry out the ass. At pow 10 they aren't exactly "insane swings" every turn. Pow 15 against 2 targets max, if her arc-nodes made it alive into range. And again, you're comparing SINGLE ATTACKS PER TURN units to multi attacks per turn units. On rat 4, 6 with the defense buff. Or 14 pow on the cutlass at .5 range mat 5(7). That's 10 attacks at the same price point you can get between 12 to 24 attacks at a farther range. Now banes are pretty brutal. They hit hard at around 16 per attack and with the debuffs could put a serious hurt on heavies. But they move at speed 5. Are defense 12, and are 1 inch reach. And since Denny can only debuff one or two targets a turn, for them to hit that hard they'd have to be focusing the same target. At 1 inch reach you're getting maybe 4-5 around a target. Assuming Denny can deliver them at all. Obviously Kromac has the same problem delivering Tharn. Which is a spell list problem. And if you can purge her debuffs she's blowing 6 focus a turn. You guys keep comparing these warmachine casters to horde casters expecting them to be point for point. Warmachine needs their focus to use their heavies. Hordes do not. Normal jacks have 1 maybe 2 initials and 3 focus. Your average warbeast has 2-3 and 4 fury. You're talking 5 attacks versus 7 IF the caster has focus left to super power. If not, you need to buy empowers for 2-4 points a piece. That raises the cost of running your jacks effectively. At your point, your model isn't 20 points. It's 20 + choir(4-6) + vassalsx2(6) both of which have to be standing within 3 inches of him to buff him. Standing right out in the open at 12/12. And his caster spends 4(3) of 6 focus on him a turn. Leaving him with little for his other jacks. So if you kill the units standing around him, but don't kill the entire unit, then yes he's hitting that hard and moving that far. So PS+23x5+extra die for charge. You would do around 54 damage to a 20 arm model. Ghetorix doing 16 + 19 + 4 extra attacks. Ends up doing 33 damage to a 20 arm model. Considerably less, but at a true 20 points, and zero cost to Kromacs fury. Which AGAIN leads more to a shitty spell list than feat. Now on feat turn, he's doing 18 21 +4 extra attacks. 47 damage to a 20 arm model on a true 20 point model zero resource cost to Kromac. Add the Gorax for 7 points for primal and he's doing 20-23 +4 extra at 27 points. 57 Damage. Still less points spent than the Avatar. And the avatar charging at 15" isn't getting buffed next round or empowered. Significantly cuts down next turns production. But so does primal. Killing the choir significantly drops his production, or killing the vassals. And to trigger his movement and buffs, you're killing these people. Choose not to kill the infantry by him, and he's not that big of a threat at all. His buffs are in the hands of your opponent. But yes, I will agree Durst runs jacks better than Kromac runs beasts. Kromacs spell list needs an upgrade for sure. Now change Dursts feat to give +2 damage, armor and mat, to EVERYONE in his army. At a 14" +large base range. Still sound fair to you? And he can't even run good infantry in his theme. He's purely jacks. I'd rather see Kromac get a better spell list and Tharns get their own buff, than have Kromacs feat be the "buff" for everyone. Again. Try it out, let us know what your opponents thought. And any other arguments keep in mind, focus is harder to spread out for buffs and jacks. You get more attacks with fury, and if a caster buffs their entire army, do they have multi attack infantry? If a caster has an awesome feat, what does their stat block look like? I like the comparison between Kromac and Durst because they have similar builds. Kromac obviously hits more and for harder. Maybe take the warbeast and living portion out of his feat and make it battlegroup specific, so Kromac himself can mulch at 60 damage during feat turn. I'm telling you now though, I highly doubt they're going to rework his spell list, make his feat FFM AND buff the ravagers to a place where they'd be useful under any caster. Here's where you're wrong... 1. Devourer's Host gives SNACKING. Snacking RFPs living models only. Ghost Fleet contains all of...one living model, namely the caster. 2. Circle has a fairly large amount of highly situational, largely caster-locked RFP. Hellmouth, Eruption of Life, etc. It does not have a ton of non-caster specific RFP. 3. Trying to out-attrition ghost fleet without RFP is asking to lose on clock in most cases. This is especially true with Tharn. 4. Ghost Pirates are POW 10...with gang, for pow 12, with a potential 7 point armor swing from feat, dark shroud (wraith engine) and parasite on feat turn, and a 5 point swing on other turns. That's swinging at P+S 19 on feat turn, for the record...unlike those pesky Tharn maybe swinging at POW 17 (IF they get brutal charge, IF Kromac2 gets the feat change). You're relying on two hypothetical CID changes to declare the first one 'broken,' yet the proposed changes STILL don't take Tharn to the damage potential of Ghost Pirates. 5. Tharn die. It's pretty much what they do. They die on the way in to low-mid POW shooting, they die when they get touched by the average infantry charge...they die. Keeping corpse tokens on them from turn to turn just shouldn't happen against a decent opponent. By contrast, pirates whole shtick is that the don't die, unless you bring some very specific tech, which Circle doesn't have particularly great access to, compared to factions with Themes giving out wholesale RFP. Seriously, I sincerely doubt you've even played this matchup. As for comparing Warmachine casters to Hordes casters...this myth that Hordes needs to be weaker than warmachine can seriously die in a fire. The disparity between fury and focus is nowhere near the level in Mk3 that it was in Mk2 (if it even exists at all), yet Hordes pays for it by having: - more expensive warbeasts by a factor of ~40-50%. This applies even after the relevant CID changes. - warbeasts that hit less hard than comparable warjacks - generally worse infantry - worse minions than Warmachine has mercenaries - worse warlocks than warmachine has warcasters.
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Post by maplewhisky on Feb 3, 2018 1:18:43 GMT
I agree with you on pretty much every point, but I will say (as niche and specific as it may be) that Grayle in DH is quite an effective counter to Ghost Fleet, due to Ghost Fleet not dealing particularly well at all with stealth which allows his feat to actually deliver ravagers, and his personal resilience to Deneghra's BS. This was the Polish WTC answer to Ghost Fleet last WTC, afaik.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 3, 2018 2:15:49 GMT
I agree with you on pretty much every point, but I will say (as niche and specific as it may be) that Grayle in DH is quite an effective counter to Ghost Fleet, due to Ghost Fleet not dealing particularly well at all with stealth which allows his feat to actually deliver ravagers, and his personal resilience to Deneghra's BS. This was the Polish WTC answer to Ghost Fleet last WTC, afaik. We definitely have answers to ghost fleet, that was 100% never something I was trying to say. We definitely have game into it, but it's nothing as simple or easy as dropping a theme to RFP them all. I'm kind of surprised at Grayle DH, though...it lacks RFP, and my experience with playing Tharn into GF is that it's a nightmare on your clock, since the GF player only have to push models forwards at you, while you've got to play more carefully and conservatively, while also dealing with the time-sinks that are piles of corpse tokens and overtake moves.
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Post by elshinare on Feb 3, 2018 15:51:17 GMT
So, what I'm reading is people want a more simple answer to rfp undead? why not change blessed weapon animus slightly by adding undead models boxed by a blessed weapon are rep? it is blessed after all
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Post by maplewhisky on Feb 3, 2018 16:51:23 GMT
Honestly, I think with the nerfs to GF PP can probably stop doling out mass RFP. I completely understand that we need to balance for the top end of Warmachine, but the number of lists caught in the crossfire of splash RFP to hit Ghost Fleet is enormous. I feel like the correct solution (nerfing Ghost Fleet) has happened and we can stop now before an RFP arms race completely pushes recursion out the game, more than the heavy heavy nerfs it has received already have.
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Post by wolfchild on Feb 3, 2018 17:26:19 GMT
Agreed. If RFP vs Recursion continues it’d be like the farce of Flaming vs Immune to Flaming that occurred in Warhammer Fantasy b4 AoS.
The main focus needs to be upon improving our Tharn, once the units and support pieces work more effectively on their own, we’ll have far better perspective as to how our casters (Kromacs and Morvannas especially) need to change. Largely Elite cadre and a spell change would work nicely for either Kromac. Kro2 with Warpath would be awesome, esp if it was battlegroup models, not just warbeasts in his battlegroup.
Ravagers are so difficult to balance specifically because of their exponential threat via Heart Eater, yet it’s the cool factor that makes them Ravagers. Brutal charge paired with any buff/debuff on target (from caster/otherwise) could make them precisely the jack n heavy infantry threat that they should be. They should rely on a feat to work, but the effects of a feat should make them excel.
How to fix Blood Pack tho is beyond me.
The girls all need something as Stealth and DEF14 just isn’t enough these days. Drift a template over them and they die in droves, largely doing little in return. Without spikes I’m rarely hitting anything they can hurt, so mostly they become jamming/scenario pieces.
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Post by forthehorde on Feb 3, 2018 19:37:27 GMT
1. Devourer's Host gives SNACKING. Snacking RFPs living models only. Ghost Fleet contains all of...one living model, namely the caster.
Yup. Didn't think that one through, my apologies.
2. Circle has a fairly large amount of highly situational, largely caster-locked RFP. Hellmouth, Eruption of Life, etc. It does not have a ton of non-caster specific RFP. 3. Trying to out-attrition ghost fleet without RFP is asking to lose on clock in most cases. This is especially true with Tharn.
Circle still has plenty of ways to deal with low def low arm infantry. Infantry mulching has never been the problem. And like others have said ghost fleets not that strong against other factions. Their shtick isn't not dying, it's not staying dead.
4. Ghost Pirates are POW 10...with gang, for pow 12, with a potential 7 point armor swing from feat, dark shroud (wraith engine) and parasite on feat turn, and a 5 point swing on other turns. That's swinging at P+S 19 on feat turn, for the record...unlike those pesky Tharn maybe swinging at POW 17 (IF they get brutal charge, IF Kromac2 gets the feat change). You're relying on two hypothetical CID changes to declare the first one 'broken,' yet the proposed changes STILL don't take Tharn to the damage potential of Ghost Pirates.
You're really ignoring their potential for extra attacks. With 6 tokens they get 12 attacks. At your proposed changes that's 6 charge attacks at 17. Against armor 20 that's 7 damage per model. It's easier to squish 6 2" reach models on a target than 10 0.5 inch models. 42 damage to armor 20 and then a second round of attacks at 15 for another 12 damage. And again, support caster versus beatstick caster. Why should Kromac be able to reach the same level as a support caster?
Revenants are power 9 with gang. Which means your first attack per target is pow 17. If you manage to surround one target with 10 half inch range units, you'd do 48 damage. If the whole unit is getting a charge off on you at speed 6 range .5 then something went horribly wrong.
5. Tharn die. It's pretty much what they do. They die on the way in to low-mid POW shooting, they die when they get touched by the average infantry charge...they die. Keeping corpse tokens on them from turn to turn just shouldn't happen against a decent opponent. By contrast, pirates whole shtick is that the don't die, unless you bring some very specific tech, which Circle doesn't have particularly great access to, compared to factions with Themes giving out wholesale RFP.
This is a tharn problem. Not a kromac feat problem. So again, buff the tharn. Don't make them dependant on a feat. And if they buff the tharn, then that feat becomes overpowered. Why would you go into the cid wanting it the other way around? Wolf said it best, need to balance the unit first then the casters. And the warmachine argument is a totally different discussion. But again you're ignoring the limitations jacks and their casters have versus hordes. Even if theu hit for the same damage, they don't hit as much. And their ability to even get 3 focus a turn is low or expensive.
Maybe tharn need a ua that grants them cannibal magic? Or unyeilding via the white mane. Something to help them live. I think that might have been mentioned already.
I'd like to see the trackers get assault if they're going to stay squishy. That little extra threat extender.
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Post by macdaddy on Feb 3, 2018 19:47:37 GMT
I really don’t think a +2 Pow And Arm swing is broken at all.
Look at anamag. She does way more than that on Feat Turn and applies Grevious wounds...
Pow 17 ravagers are fine. If you commit all 6 to a heavy it should die...that’s 21 points if models man.
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Post by forthehorde on Feb 3, 2018 20:54:28 GMT
I really don’t think a +2 Pow And Arm swing is broken at all. Look at anamag. She does way more than that on Feat Turn and applies Grevious wounds... Pow 17 ravagers are fine. If you commit all 6 to a heavy it should die...that’s 21 points if models man. Anamag is warrior model only though no? Feat wise she gives +2 str and grievous? The rest is again comparing spell lists. Which we all agree kromac is lacking. And again comparing support caster to a beat stick caster. Kromac himself can lay down the beating. With one corpse token he's taking down a heavy solo. Give him some mobility spells and he's even charging for his base 7 attacks without a corpse token and taking down a heavy. I don't mind PS 17 ravagers. It's the ravager+trackers+warbeasts with extra arm and mat that I think would be a bit over the top. Give is an infantry caster that can buff +2 str and I wouldnt care. And ravagers are 16pts. If they get brutal charge back, which I really hope they do, they can drop an armor 20 heavy without any tokens. It would be nice to get something to help them up the field. Maybe drop a pt of armor for blade shield to combat shooting?
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Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 3, 2018 21:36:18 GMT
I really don’t think a +2 Pow And Arm swing is broken at all. Look at anamag. She does way more than that on Feat Turn and applies Grevious wounds... Pow 17 ravagers are fine. If you commit all 6 to a heavy it should die...that’s 21 points if models man. Anamag is warrior model only though no? Feat wise she gives +2 str and grievous? The rest is again comparing spell lists. Which we all agree kromac is lacking. And again comparing support caster to a beat stick caster. Kromac himself can lay down the beating. With one corpse token he's taking down a heavy solo. Give him some mobility spells and he's even charging for his base 7 attacks without a corpse token and taking down a heavy. I don't mind PS 17 ravagers. It's the ravager+trackers+warbeasts with extra arm and mat that I think would be a bit over the top. Give is an infantry caster that can buff +2 str and I wouldnt care. And ravagers are 16pts. If they get brutal charge back, which I really hope they do, they can drop an armor 20 heavy without any tokens. It would be nice to get something to help them up the field. Maybe drop a pt of armor for blade shield to combat shooting? Anamag's feat gives dark shroud. It's functionally +2 damage to the entire army. It's also (realistically) quite a weak feat, all things considered - it's only in combination with her spell list that it becomes strong. Anamag's personal output is also substantial. She's not (quite) Kromac level durability, but at the start of CID she could reliably one round a buffed colossal on feat turn...and she only lost one point of strength since that point. She's certainly not just a support caster. Ravagers are 21 points with the UA, who you always take. Even if he's taken for free, that's still a free slot being used on him. Also, if you can get 6 feated heavy infantry (which die to shooting, with a caster that does nothing to deliver them) onto an Arm 20 heavy, it should die. Look, If I get 6 Butcher1 feated iron fangs onto an Arm 20 jack (P+S 13, 4 dice damage on the charge = 7 damage, they kill it. If they have Fury on them, it only takes 4. Iron Fangs are a cheaper unit, with 12 models instead of 7 (so you only have to deliver have of them, rather than nearly the whole unit) that are about as hard to kill with shooting as Ravagers. Same goes for any list with the capacity to swing armor. The funny thing is, Kromac2 would probably still not get taken with Tharn, because he does nothing to deliver them (which is the #1 thing they need solved in most matchups).
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