Deneghra3 in BI and IM

Grimolf
Junior Strategist

Posts: 246

Deneghra3 in BI and IM Dec 19, 2017 18:38:46 GMT

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Post by Grimolf on Dec 19, 2017 18:38:46 GMT

I’ve played a number of games with Deneghra3 in IM and BI recently and I wanted to share my thoughts here and seek advice from others about their experiences. I’ll start by noting that I haven’t done especially well with her, but I think she’s got potential, she’s fun to play, and I want to figure her out. Hence, I’m coming to you guys for help.

Here are some general thoughts about building lists for her. Grave Winds gives her DEF 17, which is her best protection, along with the no-knockdown from being a battle engine. Ranged stuff that can hit her high DEF (access to boosts) are scary since you can see her wherever she is on the board (stupid huge base!). As a result, she likes shield guards. She also likes things that can gather souls for her. In most games, I have found that she can do quite well without using her feat, if she can gather 2-3 souls per turn. In those cases, it can be nice to use her feat to get souls and save them for focus on the next turn. Finally, I like the Withershadow Combine with her (available in both BI and IM). The free upkeep is nice, the ability to cast an extra Mortality or Ghost Walk is helpful, and who would pass up Puppet Master (especially helpful for Malice). Plus, Withershadow can also collect some souls.

Otherwise, here are my lists with some comments:

Cryx - Denny3 - Black Industries

Theme: Black Industries
2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army

Deneghra, the Soul Weaver - WJ: +27
- The Withershadow Combine - Maelovus, Admonia & Tremulus: 9
- Inflictor - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13)
- Leviathan - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14)
- Malice - PC: 15
- Nightmare - PC: 18
- Nightwretch - PC: 0
- Nightwretch - PC: 0

Machine Wraith - PC: 2
Soul Trapper - PC: 1
Soul Trapper - PC: 1

Cephalyx Overlords - Leader & 2 Grunts: 8
Cylena Raefyll & Nyss Hunters - Cylena & 9 Grunts: 19

THEME: Black Industries
---

Inflictor for a shield guard (only one in list, which is a little scary against certain opponents). The Leviathan can be nice with her and she likes filling it with souls rather than using her FOCUS (in those cases where you only get 1 shot). I’ve thought about trading out Malice and one Soul Trapper for another Leviathan, but I’ve also found that I like some mechanism of extending threat ranges with her and the ability to drag in a heavy is nice. Nyss make nice skirmishers and can be great with a ranged assassination fueled by a Scourge. Overlords are a second unit for contesting/scoring zones. I have a Soul Trapper following each unit, but I’ve noticed that my Nyss often kill stuff so far up the board (range 12) that the Trapper isn’t usually far enough forward to get the souls. Malice is another good way to gather souls in this list. I’d add that I’ve tried a version of this that was more melee focused (with Deathjack and a Stalker rather than Leviathan/Malice), which was also fun. In that case, I liked using Ghost Walk to get melee threats into position and DJ could always cast an extra Mortality, if required. I also enjoyed fueling DJ up with souls!

Anyway, the main problem I’ve noticed with this list is that it’s supposed to be great against ranged armies (Carapace for my heavies), but it isn’t. Denny3 gives ranged lists a huge-based out - rather than shoot at my high ARM heavies, they shoot at Denny, whom they can ALWAYS see! So, while you’d normally want to take BI into ranged heavy lists, suddenly with this caster you often want to shy away from ranged heavy lists, defeating one of the main benefits of this theme. I try to keep Denny far back against such lists, but that doesn’t always work against ranged armies that can rush up the board. I faced a Khador list under Old Witch1 that managed to get Behemouth and a Devestator threatening her on her deployment line (12” due to the theme bonus) top of turn 1 - there was nowhere to go! Stupid Ashlynn can rush her army far forward quite quickly, and with her feat giving everyone extra dice to hit, Denny’s DEF 17 is suddenly not much help, and ARM 16 doesn’t stand up well to lots of POW 10s that can spike. Anyway, it can often be difficult to find a safe place for her against some fast ranged armies after turn 2.

Here’s my Infernal Machines list:

Cryx - Denny3 Infernal Machines

Theme: Infernal Machines
2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army

Deneghra, the Soul Weaver - WJ: +27
- The Withershadow Combine - Maelovus, Admonia & Tremulus: 9
- Deathripper - PC: 6 (Battlegroup Points Used: 6)
- Nightwretch - PC: 7 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7)
- Harrower - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14)

Wraith Engine - PC: 15

Hellslinger Phantom - PC: 7
Pistol Wraith - PC: 0
Pistol Wraith - PC: 0
Soul Trapper - PC: 1
Soul Trapper - PC: 1

Soulhunters - Leader & 4 Grunts: 18
Mechanithralls - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6
- Brute Thrall - PC: 2
- Brute Thrall - PC: 2
- Brute Thrall - PC: 2
Mechanithralls - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6
- Brute Thrall - PC: 2
- Brute Thrall - PC: 2

THEME: Infernal Machines
---

This list has lots of soul gatherers (Harrower works the same as Malice for soul collection in this list). There are plenty of shield guards (even when Ambushing one unit of Mechanithralls, usually the one with only 2 Brutes). Denny benefits from the ARM bonus vs. ranged and magic attacks from the Wraith Engine. Overall, Denny feels much safer vs. ranged with this list. And, if there are souls out there, they’ll find their way to Denny. I really like the Hellslinger Phantom, who can grab two quick souls for Denny from relative safety each turn. Where I’ve struggled here is against armor. I’ve put a bunch of points into units, so I don’t have as many heavies to deal with armor. Dark Shroud from the Wraith Engine combined with Mortality is helpful, but I still only have one heavy to go after opposing ‘jacks/beasts, and the Harrower isn’t that great (I could try tweaking my ‘jack configuration here). Mechanithralls do well (they really like Mortality), but they still tend to die in droves and I didn’t include recursion. I will admit that this list could use some tweaking, but I got caught up in soul gathering stuff and maybe don’t have the right mix of ‘jacks.

TLDR: BI and IM offer different opportunities and weaknesses for Denny3. I’m still trying to find the right theme home for Denny and I’d appreciate any advice you guys might have to offer. Have you had success with other themes? What lists have worked for you? What were they strong against? What were their weaknesses?

I’d note that I haven’t tried Dark Host, but I’ve been shying away from it - it seems to be the “answer” theme that fixes all of our casters, so I wanted to try something different.

Gamingdevil
The Sky Fell

Posts: 1,524

Deneghra3 in BI and IM Dec 20, 2017 10:45:01 GMT

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Post by Gamingdevil on Dec 20, 2017 10:45:01 GMT

I agree that she's probably better in Infernal Machines. Have you considered adding Nightmare for some armour cracking? It will be a choice between that and Soulhunters, Malice or Wraith Engine, but it could help. I don't think you really need the Soulhunters with all the soul collection you already have.

I haven't played her a bunch yet though, so take with I say with a grain of salt.

unded
Junior Strategist

Posts: 760

Deneghra3 in BI and IM Dec 20, 2017 16:59:29 GMT via mobile

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Post by unded on Dec 20, 2017 16:59:29 GMT

This is an interesting challenge. I’ve never been thrilled with Denny3, feeling that gamer card is lacking 2-3 rules / spells to be complete. Still she is riding a dragon (even if it’s weaker than a Khadoran horse...) so let’s give the old girl a look.

This post I’ll look at Black industries:

War Room Army

Cryx - D3 industries

Theme: Black Industries
2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army

Deneghra, the Soul Weaver - WJ: +27
- Deathjack - PC: 23 (Battlegroup Points Used: 23)
- Inflictor - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 4)
- Leviathan - PC: 16
- Harrower - PC: 16
- Slayer - PC: 10
- Stalker - PC: 8
- Nightwretch - PC: 0
- Nightwretch - PC: 0

Lord Rockbottom - PC: 4
Warwitch Siren - PC: 4

The Devil's Shadow Mutineers - Mar, Morland, & Zira: 8

THEME: Black Industries
---

GENERATED : 12/20/2017 18:45:15
BUILD ID : 2055.17-11-21

So, what and why:

- DJ. Overhyped and overpriced hunk of metal that he is, Denny really benefits from having something cast mortality before she activates so you can get the soul train rolling. He is ludicrously expensive, so once he’s in that’s it for character jacks imo.

- inflictor. Shield guard for Eiryss1. ‘,nuff def.

- Harrower to pick up souls and get the soul train rolling, also a nice extra gun that can control the field a bit.

- Leviathan is great once you have mortality. Sirens help here as well.

- cheap hitters. Slayer and stalker are great cheap jacks that each bring a different defensive mechanism. Go nuts.

- pirates: the mutineers and rock bottom combo unbelievably with mortality. Add a Leviathan in and you can easily remove a heavy per round.

On reflection I have no soul trappers which is probably a mistake, maybe downgrade the Slater to a second stalker for 2 trappers.

Against anything that could genuinely threaten Denny from afar you can just hang back, while normally playing pretty aggressively. My biggest annoyance is that this list is very similar to my Gaspy3 BI list, which I think is just plain better.

tiberius
Junior Strategist

Posts: 848

Deneghra3 in BI and IM Dec 20, 2017 18:10:33 GMT

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Post by tiberius on Dec 20, 2017 18:10:33 GMT

The only advantage that Denny would have over Asphyxious the Hellbringer would be Scourge. If your opponent's caster is not immune to knockdown and you can get an arc node nearby, the pop and drop is a tried and true technique and she is the only version of Denny that can still do it. Scourge + mortality from a soul, then light them up with the leviathan or whatever else you brought with ranged weapons. If that isn't enough, jump that stalker in there to finish them.

Grimolf
Junior Strategist

Posts: 246

Deneghra3 in BI and IM Dec 20, 2017 19:29:41 GMT

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Post by Grimolf on Dec 20, 2017 19:29:41 GMT

Good suggestions here. As you all note, it seems that there are better casters for these themes and Denny3 seems to be lacking something. She’s such a beautiful model that I really want a reason to put her on the table (I just finished painting her up).

tiberius: The Scourge then ranged shooting was largely steering the design of my BI list and decision to bring the expensive Nyss Hunters with their 12” range CRA bows (I didn’t mention that). Bringing Stalkers for extra melee threat would also be good.

Gamingdevil: Armor cracking is indeed a big weakness in my IM list. It’s frustrating sometimes. I want to put stuff in to protect her or get her soul train going (Wraith Engine and Soul Hunters), but then that leaves her weak in other areas. Nightmare instead of Soul Hunters would likely be very helpful as an armor cracking anchor in that list. The Harrower just can’t fill that role.

unded: I like that list. You capitalize on the ranged potential with good melee support. I like the Lord Rockbottom + Devil’s Shadow Mutineers package. I worry that the RFP part of their recursion sucks up some souls Denny wants, but with Mortality they can do nice work killing infantry. How do you use them in your Gaspy3 list?

unded
Junior Strategist

Posts: 760

Deneghra3 in BI and IM Dec 20, 2017 21:00:51 GMT

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Post by unded on Dec 20, 2017 21:00:51 GMT

I use the mutineers in the Gaspy3 list pretty much the same way I described them here. Land calamity (Gaspy has calamity instead of Mortality. I run the same combo with Venethrax as well who also has Mortality) on a heavy, shoot it up with the Leviathan + Zira.

What's surprisingly effective is letting (Morland? Mar? I can never keep them straight) to surf infantry by handing out the coin that gives boosted melee attack rolls and overtake. Nobody expects it because they focus all their attention on Zira. The biggest difference is that Gaspy has a threat extender in MObility, which Denny sorely lacks.

-und_ed

unded
Junior Strategist

Posts: 760

Deneghra3 in BI and IM Dec 20, 2017 22:16:04 GMT

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Post by unded on Dec 20, 2017 22:16:04 GMT

Dec 20, 2017 18:10:33 GMT tiberius said:

The only advantage that Denny would have over Asphyxious the Hellbringer would be Scourge. If your opponent's caster is not immune to knockdown and you can get an arc node nearby, the pop and drop is a tried and true technique and she is the only version of Denny that can still do it. Scourge + mortality from a soul, then light them up with the leviathan or whatever else you brought with ranged weapons. If that isn't enough, jump that stalker in there to finish them.

True, but to trade that off I can run my jacks to 13" outside of my enemy's deployment on turn #1 with Gaspy3. That is some serious pressure to put on your opponent when shooting your jacks is a lost cause, especially when a seether is now threatening 1" out of his deployment with a melee charge. Those kinds of shenanigans make the Gaspy3 version so much stronger imo.

I'm getting side-tracked though. I promise tomorrow I'll take a look at Denny3 in IM, where I think she might have a place using double soulhunters (although possibly the Coven would do it better...)

-und_ed

Gamingdevil
The Sky Fell

Posts: 1,524

Deneghra3 in BI and IM Dec 21, 2017 7:43:32 GMT

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Post by Gamingdevil on Dec 21, 2017 7:43:32 GMT

Dec 20, 2017 22:16:04 GMT unded said:

Dec 20, 2017 18:10:33 GMT tiberius said:

The only advantage that Denny would have over Asphyxious the Hellbringer would be Scourge. If your opponent's caster is not immune to knockdown and you can get an arc node nearby, the pop and drop is a tried and true technique and she is the only version of Denny that can still do it. Scourge + mortality from a soul, then light them up with the leviathan or whatever else you brought with ranged weapons. If that isn't enough, jump that stalker in there to finish them.

True, but to trade that off I can run my jacks to 13" outside of my enemy's deployment on turn #1 with Gaspy3. That is some serious pressure to put on your opponent when shooting your jacks is a lost cause, especially when a seether is now threatening 1" out of his deployment with a melee charge. Those kinds of shenanigans make the Gaspy3 version so much stronger imo.

I'm getting side-tracked though. I promise tomorrow I'll take a look at Denny3 in IM, where I think she might have a place using double soulhunters (although possibly the Coven would do it better...)

-und_ed

Perhaps something like this? Looks interesting actually, you don't need Soul Trappers because everything collects their own souls. There are shield guards available if you face Eiryss, but for the rest you can probably ambush and bully the board with high threat ranges/incorporeal models. Too bad there's no space for the Hellslinger, but I don't really want to lose the Wraith Engine.

conflictchamber.com/#c4201b_-0weZ19191x0t2t2ti01K2626bB

Cryx Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Infernal Machines

(Deneghra 3) Deneghra, the Soul Weaver [+27]
- Deathripper [6]
- Deathripper [6]
- Nightmare [18]
- The Withershadow Combine [9]
Pistol Wraith [0(5)]
Pistol Wraith [0(5)]
Mechanithralls (min) [6]
- Brute Thrall (3) [6]
Soulhunters (max) [18]
Soulhunters (max) [18]
Wraith Engine [15]

unded
Junior Strategist

Posts: 760

Deneghra3 in BI and IM Dec 21, 2017 11:19:36 GMT

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Post by unded on Dec 21, 2017 11:19:36 GMT

I built something similar, Gamingdevil.

Denny3
Deathjack
Nightwretch
Wraith Engine
Darragh Wrathe
Pistol wraiths x2 (free)
Min Mcthralls + 3 brutes
Max Soulies x 2

I still don't rate the combine at their points, and would much rather play Darragh in this this list. Since the list is all about delivering soulhunters, I want the SPD buff. This might be reconsidered with the ability to cast ghostwalk on the soulhunters though.

The wraith Engine is a grudge purchase to me. I'm trying to deliver soulhunters and at 14/14 they die just a little bit too easily to small arms fire. The engine means it now requires dedicated bigger shooting to hurt them, which is pretty important. As a side note it's a bit of late-game damage and an extra damage multiplier if needed. DJ over Nightmare is simple - I want to be able to cast mortality before a unit of soulhunters charges in so they get full value out of their generous number of attacks, and then Denny can swipe some sweet souls in her activation and maybe spread around some more mortality love. It's tempting to drop one of the pistol wraiths for a necrosurgeon to get some real value out of the Mcthralls, but that might just be last night's booze talking. I don't believe Denny needs more than one arcnode in this list since she is going to be moving, casting and repositioning, plus is so very tanky on her own. Especially true with DJ in the list.

I don't know. I kinda feel like the Coven would do this better since they have much better tech both to deliver the soulhunters and to protect them (I wouldn't bother with the Wraith Engine building under the Coven).

Well, the lists look playable at least, so there's that. I still can't help but feel they left half her rules off her card.

-und_ed

tiberius
Junior Strategist

Posts: 848

Deneghra3 in BI and IM Dec 21, 2017 11:58:35 GMT

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Post by tiberius on Dec 21, 2017 11:58:35 GMT

I do agree with a few things there Unded, Denny is definitely missing at least one spell on her card. For a FOC 7 caster and the ability to just spam spells, I understand why they were very careful with her package to not put her too much over the top, but she feels very bare bones to me. FOC 7 casters should have a minimum of 5 spells. Or some ability to get more (animi as in hordes).

I think it was a missed opportunity with the dragon mount to have its only abilities be flight and super fast. Those are great, but it has a super weak mount attack and a very inaccurate breath weapon attack taking the place of her normal Venom spell which is much more accurate for the same effect. It has no other special rules or abilities.

And I also feel that Asphyxious 3 is the more complete caster. Mobility speeds himself up to almost Denny 3 speeds and it makes his entire battle group faster. Then he can protect them better as well.

She can feed the warjacks better if you have the soul train running, and she has the knockdown spell. Aside from that, Asphyxious is clearly the more advantageous caster in most builds. He supports the army better, has similar debuffs (calamity), has better buffs (ashen veil) and his feat is pretty much just as good as Deneghra's on average, as I typically get 5-7 souls from it. Again just my opinion. I want to love the chick riding a giant undead dragon, but I too feel she is missing something.

Gamingdevil
The Sky Fell

Posts: 1,524

Deneghra3 in BI and IM Dec 21, 2017 12:15:34 GMT

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Post by Gamingdevil on Dec 21, 2017 12:15:34 GMT

Dec 21, 2017 11:58:35 GMT tiberius said:

I do agree with a few things there Unded, Denny is definitely missing at least one spell on her card. For a FOC 7 caster and the ability to just spam spells, I understand why they were very careful with her package to not put her too much over the top, but she feels very bare bones to me. FOC 7 casters should have a minimum of 5 spells. Or some ability to get more (animi as in hordes).

I think it was a missed opportunity with the dragon mount to have its only abilities be flight and super fast. Those are great, but it has a super weak mount attack and a very inaccurate breath weapon attack taking the place of her normal Venom spell which is much more accurate for the same effect. It has no other special rules or abilities.

And I also feel that Asphyxious 3 is the more complete caster. Mobility speeds himself up to almost Denny 3 speeds and it makes his entire battle group faster. Then he can protect them better as well.

She can feed the warjacks better if you have the soul train running, and she has the knockdown spell. Aside from that, Asphyxious is clearly the more advantageous caster in most builds. He supports the army better, has similar debuffs (calamity), has better buffs (ashen veil) and his feat is pretty much just as good as Deneghra's on average, as I typically get 5-7 souls from it. Again just my opinion. I want to love the chick riding a giant undead dragon, but I too feel she is missing something.

Well, there's reason a reason that she doesn't have Venom, because she would blow pretty much any caster under ARM 15 off the table on feat turn if she had any kind of attack spell. I agree that she could use a little something extra though. At least with the nerfs to Denny 1 coming in, she will be slightly more than just being a worse Denny 1.

unded, you're right that she probably only needs 1 node and I was thinking about cramming Darragh in, but like I said, I haven't played her much yet and I think she's one of the casters that gets the most out of the Withershadow Combine. You're basically using DJ as a worse version of them, because he needs to pay for the cast and doesn't give a free upkeep or reroll. Especially the reroll can be important when going for personal assassinations and getting that Scourge and/or Mortality off.

tiberius
Junior Strategist

Posts: 848

Deneghra3 in BI and IM Dec 21, 2017 12:24:00 GMT

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Post by tiberius on Dec 21, 2017 12:24:00 GMT

I agree Gamingdevil, you cant just give Deneghra 3 a spammable attack spell and expect her to be balanced with her soul abilities. Even a POW 10 spray is going to wreck anything (as you said ARM 15 or less) when you cast it 6-7 times onto a mortalitied target and still boost damage each time.

unded
Junior Strategist

Posts: 760

Deneghra3 in BI and IM Dec 21, 2017 15:54:25 GMT

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Post by unded on Dec 21, 2017 15:54:25 GMT

Dec 21, 2017 12:15:34 GMT Gamingdevil said:

unded , you're right that she probably only needs 1 node and I was thinking about cramming Darragh in, but like I said, I haven't played her much yet and I think she's one of the casters that gets the most out of the Withershadow Combine. You're basically using DJ as a worse version of them, because he needs to pay for the cast and doesn't give a free upkeep or reroll. Especially the reroll can be important when going for personal assassinations and getting that Scourge and/or Mortality off.

DJ is doing a couple things that the Combine is not:

1) When Denny is feeling confident, he's actually a great target for Grave Wind. That goes a long way to getting real value out of his overpriced arse.

2) His mortality casts are boostable

3) His mortality casts can get up a lot farther than the combine, allowing for starting up the soul train a turn earlier.

It's not an easy choice, I'll grant that. I just value the order-of-activation shenanigans so highly with Denny. (I'm in the same boat as tiberius - I really want to love her. I own her, I've painted her... hell, I even have 4 painted Helldivers as a leftover from MKII, but I just cannot justify her incomplete package as is. The souls just don't do enough to justify her badly empty card, and the addition of power-up only lowered the value of those souls)

-und_ed

Last Edit: Dec 21, 2017 15:54:52 GMT by unded

Grimolf
Junior Strategist

Posts: 246

Deneghra3 in BI and IM Dec 21, 2017 17:57:12 GMT

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Post by Grimolf on Dec 21, 2017 17:57:12 GMT

I do like the double Soul Hunter IM builds, GamingDevil & Unded. I’ll have to give them a try next.

I do wonder what could be added to her card. I know a nuke spell would be over powered, but perhaps an upkeep that she couldn’t spam that helped with threat range extension. She could spend a soul to swap it to another ‘jack. That would be extremely helpful for her and not unbalancing, I think.

unded
Junior Strategist

Posts: 760

Deneghra3 in BI and IM Dec 22, 2017 0:28:09 GMT

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Post by unded on Dec 22, 2017 0:28:09 GMT

She definitely needs at least one more spell, obviously not a nuke to spam with souls.

More importantly she needs more of a reward for collecting souls. Her whole gimmick is built around souls, and spamming mortality / ghostwalk and feeding 2 focus to a jack just seems pretty poor returns for all the hoops she has to jump through. Worst of the lot of course is the (frankly inexcusable) POW 12 dragon. How that is anything less than POW 16 is beyond me.

-und_ed