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Post by dgwhite87 on Dec 17, 2017 23:31:25 GMT
We all know that all factions are not created equal in terms of power level. But did you also know that all factions are also not created equal in terms of cost? Check out Vygngynce's economic guide to Warmahordes -Vyngynce "It was because my internal calculator had kicked on, and I had been subconsciously telling myself that I could probably buy better lists for less money. I already owned almost all the models I needed for solid Power of Dhunia and Band of Heroes lists. I found myself making the cost benefit analysis for picking up the new Northkin theme and turning it down for what I already had, already was comfortable with." midwestwargaming.com/economic-guide-warmachine-hordes/
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Post by jisidro on Dec 18, 2017 11:43:10 GMT
It's interesting to see that Grymkin is one of the expensive ones... but that is likely due to all the models having newer price points. Or not?
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Post by Blargaliscious on Dec 18, 2017 13:13:46 GMT
Years ago I played Epic from Games Workshop. It was a great game that then triple-bounce crashed and burned when the "third edition" of the game (Epic40K) came out with an atrocious rules set. In the years between Epic40K and Epic: Armageddon I continued to collect the miniatures via Bartertown in hopes that the game might have a comeback. One of the things I noticed was that some of the miniatures were harder to find than others. Once you took into account for various reasons why some were harder than others, there was one model that really stood out: the Capital Imperialis.
The biggest reason why it was hard to find: almost nobody bought it. I think the reason why nobody bought it was because it was financially expensive yet had a low points cost and some really poor rules. I think a lot of players did a quick and dirty bit of mental cost / benefit analysis and decided against buying it. After all, why spend money on a stinker? After thinking back to all of the other wargames I have played I created what I call "The Capital Imperialis Rule."
The Capital Imperialis Rule: The more expensive a miniature, the better / more worthwhile the rules for it should be.
I like what Vyngynce did with his analysis because it pretty much plays into The Capital Imperialis Rule, but it did so on a very broad, superficial level. One of the assumptions inherent in his work is that all of the models have equally good rules. That is where his analysis falls apart.
For example: Vyngynce called out the Khador warjacks as being typically priced yet having a low points cost. Fair enough, but we all know that the Marauder and the Juggernaut are worth their points, enough so that Khador players are willing to pay for the jack kits to get the Marauder.
The colossals are interesting in that they are really expensive, yet they have so many rules that give them special abilities that they start to become worth the investment. The fact that they have gotten cheaper with the plastic kits has made them more worth getting for more players. I think why we don't see a lot of the gargantuans on the board is because a lot of them are not worth the financial expense for their rules.
Then you get into the large and huge-based casters. How many of them have rules that make their financial expense worth bearing?
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Post by Vyngynce on Dec 18, 2017 14:45:40 GMT
Funny you mentioned large and huge-based casters. They really skew the averages, especially Old Witch 2/3. My article on that went up this morning, and I'll be sharing it around.
Colossals don't mess with the math that badly, actually. The average CPP for Colossals is $3.10. You are right that they are a higher individual price, though, and that can be enough to keep from buying them. The Gargantuans on the other hand average $3.42.
I made none of my analysis based on rules, by the way. There were 757 models in this analysis, and there was no way I could do that. I did mention when I pointed out that the Shredder was less than a dollar a point, that no one was going to play them still. That's why I skipped to point out the Woldwyrd's CPP, because that model is interesting.
The one thing I noticed after writing this up was that it did need to zoom in a little more. This project needs to zoom in a little more. I have an article on casters out today, and I am working on analysis of theme forces. I couldn't call out the most popular models, but when I break things down by theme, I will write up one faction at a time so we can discuss models like the Marauder. I did want to talk about that model, but I was unable to, given how long the article got.
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Post by dgwhite87 on Dec 18, 2017 14:52:19 GMT
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Post by borderprince on Dec 18, 2017 15:18:13 GMT
This project needs to zoom in a little more. I couldn't call out the most popular models, but when I break things down by theme, I will write up one faction at a time so we can discuss models like the Marauder. I did want to talk about that model, but I was unable to, given how long the article got. It gets a bit more problematic with multi-kits though, because players might not just be purchasing a Marauder. They may be purchasing a kit to magnetize. If the kit includes multiple models worth playing in some lists (in the case of the Juggernaut kit 3 of the 4 jacks in it that category), that makes the economic analysis more complex. In an individual list it might be simple, but how do you work out those kinds of costs over a hobby life-time, especially when the variant models have varying points (a 40% difference between the Marauder and Destroyer, for example).
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Dec 18, 2017 15:39:22 GMT
It's interesting to see that Grymkin is one of the expensive ones... but that is likely due to all the models having newer price points. Or not? I think that's probably a factor, plus they have a Battle Engine that's only 13 points, a caster that is one of the most expensive models in the whole range, and I'm pretty sure they have a lot of resin in general. They also generally have lower point models.
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Post by Vyngynce on Dec 18, 2017 15:50:36 GMT
Interesting you mentioned magnetizing. That's a very good way to drop your costs, and for a moment I considered pricing the heavy kits at $12 instead of $35. I will probably need to do a "how to save money in warmahordes" article when this is all finished.
This was originally just a whim of a project, but every bit of feedback inspires me to look at it from another angle.
The three most problematic models for Grymkin are the Death Knell - $6.54 per point, Dread Rots - $4.17 per point, and Old Witch 3. If you add gremlin swarms in, they can be a problem as well at $5.33. They cost $16 total and are probably free point options if you are bringing them.
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Post by welshhoppo on Dec 18, 2017 23:59:28 GMT
Seeing as I am getting the OW2/3 for Christmas I figured it would be a good time to start collecting Grymkin.
Then I checked out the prices and I was like mneh, maybe I'll wait and go buy a house first.
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Dec 19, 2017 1:03:39 GMT
The one benefit for Grymkin, and why I think a lot of people like myself were able to afford getting into this very tiny faction, is the big box set. That thing is a steal, and throws the grymkin math out the window.
For $200 (which most places I've seen mark down to $160), you're getting $288 worth of models. So most people seem to have gotten at least 2, as even if you ignore Longfellow and Heretic, it's still $258 of useful models for far less.
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Post by Vyngynce on Dec 19, 2017 1:23:38 GMT
The one benefit for Grymkin, and why I think a lot of people like myself were able to afford getting into this very tiny faction, is the big box set. That thing is a steal, and throws the grymkin math out the window. For $200 (which most places I've seen mark down to $160), you're getting $288 worth of models. So most people seem to have gotten at least 2, as even if you ignore Longfellow and Heretic, it's still $258 of useful models for far less. Faction boxes, All in One boxes, starting battleboxes, etc., definitely give you a discount toward playing the game. One of the funny stories from this last month is that when PP put their MK2 battleboxes on sale for $10, every CoC player was buying 10 of them because it was the cheapest way to get a galvanizer. I will definitely be adding these discounted packages to my guide to playing this game on the cheap when I put it together.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Dec 19, 2017 1:36:09 GMT
The one benefit for Grymkin, and why I think a lot of people like myself were able to afford getting into this very tiny faction, is the big box set. That thing is a steal, and throws the grymkin math out the window. For $200 (which most places I've seen mark down to $160), you're getting $288 worth of models. So most people seem to have gotten at least 2, as even if you ignore Longfellow and Heretic, it's still $258 of useful models for far less. Faction boxes, All in One boxes, starting battleboxes, etc., definitely give you a discount toward playing the game. One of the funny stories from this last month is that when PP put their MK2 battleboxes on sale for $10, every CoC player was buying 10 of them because it was the cheapest way to get a galvanizer. I will definitely be adding these discounted packages to my guide to playing this game on the cheap when I put it together. I wouldn't, that deal was a "Black Friday" sale and is long gone, replaced with a generic "Holiday Sale" where the Mk2 boxed sets are now $20 each. Though, if they do repeat that sale again I will definitely do the same thing - I only got 1 box 3 weeks ago.
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Post by Vyngynce on Dec 19, 2017 1:37:02 GMT
Seeing as I am getting the OW2/3 for Christmas I figured it would be a good time to start collecting Grymkin. Then I checked out the prices and I was like mneh, maybe I'll wait and go buy a house first. Their one advantage is that they are a smaller faction. You also don't have to have as much variety to play them competitively. I'd take Doopsie's advice and buy a starter or two if you can get your hands on it. Plus, if you have Old Witch 3, you already have their most expensive model. Outside of her, the price of their faction is pretty similar to every other faction. If you avoid Mad Caps and Cask Imps, the CPP is very much in line with other factions. The actual ticket price on the Death Knell is dead on average for a Battle Engine, as most them cost $85. I hope that helps.
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Post by Vyngynce on Dec 19, 2017 1:40:11 GMT
Faction boxes, All in One boxes, starting battleboxes, etc., definitely give you a discount toward playing the game. One of the funny stories from this last month is that when PP put their MK2 battleboxes on sale for $10, every CoC player was buying 10 of them because it was the cheapest way to get a galvanizer. I will definitely be adding these discounted packages to my guide to playing this game on the cheap when I put it together. I wouldn't, that deal was a "Black Friday" sale and is long gone, replaced with a generic "Holiday Sale" where the Mk2 boxed sets are now $20 each. Though, if they do repeat that sale again I will definitely do the same thing - I only got 1 box 3 weeks ago. I didn't mean the sale items, I mean box sets. I was just reminded of how funny it was to see stacks of ten starters show up on the CoC Facebook page. Anyways, even at retail items like theme force boxes are a discount compared to buying the items individually.
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