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Post by Soul Samurai on Feb 24, 2018 15:06:23 GMT
I hear this argument about miniature proportions a lot, and I think it's total hogwash. People don't usually recognize models by their faces and hands—they recognize their silhouettes. I agree that a silhouette makes something recognizable; I was very impressed by how Overwatch kept all it's characters easily distinguishable in the heat of the action despite some of them having similar body shapes (and have written about that well over a year ago), and you might be right that exaggerated female figures are not necessary for recognition even at tiny 28mm scale. However, there's more to it than that. I said that heads and hands are exaggerated in "heroic" scale: I believe that's because if hands were sculpted any smaller they would not have been able to have individual fingers, models would just have had paddles for hands. And if heads were smaller it would have been very hard to have an actual face, they would just have had tiny lumpy eggs. Perhaps I'm wrong about it being possible or not with the casting methods of previous years, but even if it was possible it would be hard to paint (remember also that miniature painting materials and techniques were not as well developed back then), so having larger faces and hands makes tiny 28mm models look better, hence heroic scale. I mention hands and heads as the most critical features, but I think that just having hands and heads oversized and everything else realistic would look freakish; besides exaggerating everything else has the same advantages while sticking within the established size bracket (take a loot at craggy GW Orc muscles with the bulging viens: easy to paint up with basic techniques so they look good on the table). Hence both male and female figures having unrealistic proportions. Perhaps you could have cartoonishly exaggerated female minis that don't have exaggerated hourglass figures while still looking good next to the exaggerated male figures; I'm honestly not sure how well it would have worked with the methods and materials available 10-30 years ago or whatever. The point is they were never going to look realistic back in the day, so the question was just how to exaggerate proportions. Well, that's my understanding anyway. I don't really know. Personally the first female figure I ever painted was this one (and I think it shows in the terrible job I did painting her face): I picked her because I loved the natural pose and relatively realistic look (compared to the Space Marines I was painting before at any rate). And like I said, PP's female figures were better than a lot of the the others I'd seen till that point. But the thing is, I'm a guy and I'm perfectly happy to paint and play with a male model with exaggerated muscles bulging out all over the place (alongside more realistic ones of course; I enjoy both is the point). So I wonder; do women want all their gaming miniatures to be sensible and realistically proportioned, or are they happy to have some of their female heroes exhibit exaggerated female traits the same way I'm happy for some of my male heroes to exhibit exaggerated male traits *? *Let's not get into an argument about "muscles not being a male trait" right now; I'm trying to keep things relatively simple, and as I said before I would like to see more body types represented in miniatures, my point is just that I don't necessarily think the current common types PP has are "wrong".
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crow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 310
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Post by crow on Feb 24, 2018 16:26:08 GMT
Meh, only female model I care about is the female dwarf in the HAC. I always thought it was cool to have an actual female dwarf! And although she’s got a couple of big guns on her chest, she is anything but oversexualized. Armored right up to he chin, and looking baller!
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Post by NephMakes on Feb 24, 2018 17:08:25 GMT
Perhaps I'm wrong about it being possible or not with the casting methods of previous years, but even if it was possible it would be hard to paint (remember also that miniature painting materials and techniques were not as well developed back then), so having larger faces and hands makes tiny 28mm models look better, hence heroic scale. I think you're right about the "heroic" scale being a response to the casting limitations of the mid/late 1980's. I remember (and still have some of) the Ral Partha miniatures of the time. Compared to them, even the oldhammer GW minis looked so much more dynamic. Casting methods have gotten a lot better—I absolutely love the detail and clarity of PP's metal minis—but there are still sturdiness and assembly issues with "realistic" proportions. Mortenebra's tiny arms and legs come to mind. The creep to slightly larger scales helps mitigate that. In any case, adopting a somewhat cartoonish style to make things work in-game is fine by me. I like World of Warcraft's style, for example. It's just a matter of execution. The GW grimderp where people have dumpy legs and no abdomens is not for me, but when you convert their minis to be more realistic (and thus taller) they look great. (And yes, it is exactly as time-consuming as it sounds). PP's minis have better proportions in general, but the current skarre1 sculpt for example looks to me like a ten year old prostitute. As a dude why tries to think about women as first and foremost regular people, for me it's a matter of how much. It's okay to have some models be overtly sexualized, male or female. Overwatch's black widow is an example. But when most of the female models are like that, it's a problem. Some WMH factions are better than others, but in Cryx it's an issue. Why would Mortenebra choose to live in a creepy/awesome mechanical insect-body then feel the need to preserve and show off her cleavage? Even if you allow for sexualized satyxis, the rest of Cryx is mostly dudes in armor and ladies in super-skimpy outfits. The recent slaughter fleet models are better. The male and female sharde pirates, blighted trollkin marauders, and black ogrun ironmongers are all pretty similar. So I guess somebody at PP recognizes the problem.
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Post by macdaddy on Feb 24, 2018 18:18:41 GMT
The pin ups in moderation don’t bother me, but when it seems like 75% of these exculives are just going to be gender swap pin up cop out...well it’s just plain lazy design.
All the things you could have done with the totem hunter, movie references, Race Swapping, Armor modifying. Literally sky is the limit...and they make literally the exact same model, with almost the exact same pose, but give it boobs and expose some more skin.
These designers spend too much time on 4chan....
Ashlyn was awesome, Ghiest was awesome, bloody bradigan was cool, but the pin ups are getting boring and old. Just feels lazy on thier part.
It’s been 8 Of these released now? And our of those 8, 5 have been pin up gender swaps...
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Post by W0lfBane on Feb 24, 2018 18:37:13 GMT
The one thing I'm mad about with regards to the regular females in w/h is that they made the armor for the female knight exemplar officer distinctive enough that you can't really claim the others were females all along.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Feb 24, 2018 18:51:31 GMT
The pin ups in moderation don’t bother me, but when it seems like 75% of these exculives are just going to be gender swap pin up cop out...well it’s just plain lazy design. All the things you could have done with the totem hunter, movie references, Race Swapping, Armor modifying. Literally sky is the limit...and they make literally the exact same model, with almost the exact same pose, but give it boobs and expose some more skin. These designers spend too much time on 4chan.... Ashlyn was awesome, Ghiest was awesome, bloody bradigan was cool, but the pin ups are getting boring and old. Just feels lazy on thier part. It’s been 8 Of these released now? And our of those 8, 5 have been pin up gender swaps... Yeah, Ashlynn has been the only sculpt that interested me so far.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 24, 2018 19:57:40 GMT
I picked up Ashlynn and the Totem Hunter, but that's it (The totem hunter is a legitimately nice sculpt, on top of being a genderswap) but...victoria pendrake? Ms. Walls? Those aren't creative or interesting, they're just lazy, and the sculpts aren't notably better than the originals.
So many ways they could go with this, and we get genderswapped mercs. sigh.
What I really wouldn't mind seeing is a reimagining of some of the older Lesser Warlocks + Beasts. Some of those sculpts are showing their age, and the models are both available to a lot of factions AND have a lot of character to go off of.
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Post by Azuresun on Feb 24, 2018 20:05:07 GMT
What I'd really like to see is alternate sculpts for some of the solos that typically get taken in pairs--like we got for first-generation solos like the Manhunter, Paladin, Journeyman, etc. For example, there's a lot of possibilities for an alternate Allegiant of the Fist, and I suspect Retribution players would like to have more than one Arcanist pose.
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Post by skarreslave on Feb 24, 2018 23:20:06 GMT
The merc and minion early choices make sense to me. I would like to see faction choices, but early on when they are trying to build interest in the new offering mercs and minions will appeal to the largest audience since they can be used in most armies. If they started with an alter arcanist that would be great for ret, but then everyone would be going "Where is my faction X mini?" and could be put off on the whole line. hopefully with time if they sell enough of the minicrates they will be able to afford to take a chance on faction alt models.
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Post by pyr0maniacal on Feb 25, 2018 15:48:21 GMT
I like the 'pinups', they're neat. What I really want are some Protectorate minis. C'mon!
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Feb 26, 2018 14:40:21 GMT
I totally get wanting faction specific options, but I just don't see it happening. Mercs and Minions can be taken by lots of factions and you also get the people who want to paint them up for competition (since they are more detailed than a lot of other "normal play" minis).
Switching from those to single faction models, you lose everyone but the people who paint for competition. The market just isn't there for those. My guess is that faction specific alternate sculpts will continue to be con exclusives, and this is how PP decided to do alternate sculpts for Mercs and Minions (seeing as how there really wasn't much of that before).
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Post by erythro on Feb 27, 2018 7:26:03 GMT
Slight rant...
I received this months model. Brad Pitt pirate? I don't play mercs, but don't mind interesting models. Oh my is he dull. The model could of been called standard human male in coat, generic pose 3.
I really regret signing up for 6 months. So far only the feral giest has hit the mark.
The gender swaps are dull and unimaginative at best. I am happy with the idea, it's great to increase the female representation in the PP world. Victoria Pendrake has potential.
I will not be renewing my subscription in the future. Especially now I have found out I could of bought individual months. Sigh
I guess it was a good idea, just don't think it has followed through particularly well.
I will say the boxes the models are delivered in are very petty and enticing.
Slight rant over...
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Choco
Junior Strategist
Gorten, best feet in the game.
Posts: 571
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Post by Choco on Feb 27, 2018 19:11:50 GMT
Slight rant... I received this months model. Brad Pitt pirate? I don't play mercs, but don't mind interesting models. Oh my is he dull. The model could of been called standard human male in coat, generic pose 3. I really regret signing up for 6 months. So far only the feral giest has hit the mark. The gender swaps are dull and unimaginative at best. I am happy with the idea, it's great to increase the female representation in the PP world. Victoria Pendrake has potential. I will not be renewing my subscription in the future. Especially now I have found out I could of bought individual months. Sigh I guess it was a good idea, just don't think it has followed through particularly well. I will say the boxes the models are delivered in are very petty and enticing. Slight rant over... The only thing you will miss out on is the VIP exclusive model. As long as you are fine with that, then you will have a better time buying individually.
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Post by allenkoholic on Feb 28, 2018 14:22:35 GMT
I quite liked the Fight Club Bradigan. The back of him is a little dull, but its better than the "add boobs to character". It's a clever take on him, at least in my opinion. The design insider was thoughtful for him.
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Feb 28, 2018 14:34:08 GMT
I've liked them for the most part (the valet with the piper was a cute touch, ashlynn is awesome, the geist is very cool, swamp siren is a very unique approach), and have found that it is trivially easy to sell them for $30 each. I sold a couple to friends for "cost" and two for $30-$40 and easily paid for the remaining ones. The VIP seems to be the ONLY smart way, if you are willing to put in a modicum of effort, but I understand why people wouldn't like it.
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