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Post by greenjello on Dec 21, 2017 1:33:27 GMT
He’s not the same thing? One is a melee heavy warbeast and the other is basic melee infantry. If you charge snapjaw at a warbeast, it will probably die, if you charge boomhowler and co at warbeast, it will not. Sorry, keep hearing people say "melee infantry" and thought you were saying the same thing. So why aren't Boomhowler's decent melee infantry for Kriel Company? I haven't used them since mkII, but they don't seem to have changed much. I could see an argument for their being more a tarpit, but they've got decent stats at MAT6, POW12 on their weapons. Also please explain why a warbeast will not go down to charging POW12s. Finally, why is Rok not considered a decent melee heavy in this case?
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Post by macdaddy on Dec 21, 2017 2:32:17 GMT
Charging Pow 12’s with CMA!
I think Boomhowler are just a little too expensive for what they do.
If they were cheaper I could see them being better. They should honestly probably have “partisan trollbloods”
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Post by greenjello on Dec 21, 2017 3:50:02 GMT
If they were cheaper I could see them being better. They should honestly probably have “partisan trollbloods” In Kriel Company they are considered to be Trollblood models. So for the purposes of this discussion, they are.
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Post by Trollock on Dec 21, 2017 8:04:47 GMT
He’s not the same thing? One is a melee heavy warbeast and the other is basic melee infantry. If you charge snapjaw at a warbeast, it will probably die, if you charge boomhowler and co at warbeast, it will not. Sorry, keep hearing people say "melee infantry" and thought you were saying the same thing. So why aren't Boomhowler's decent melee infantry for Kriel Company? I haven't used them since mkII, but they don't seem to have changed much. I could see an argument for their being more a tarpit, but they've got decent stats at MAT6, POW12 on their weapons. Also please explain why a warbeast will not go down to charging POW12s. Finally, why is Rok not considered a decent melee heavy in this case? Boomhowlers are slow and do not punch very hard. They have guns with short range and horrible RAT. They are not very survivable (they were in MK2, but that doesnt matter). They are also fairly expensive. Even in the merc theme force where they gain ambush ppl stay away from them. In short: Boomhowlers are awful at everything. They WERE awesome in MK2, but got super nerfed in MK3 and has not recovered. Sort of like the Burrowers... Rök IS a good melee heavy, but he is not allowed in KC since he is a character.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Dec 21, 2017 8:17:26 GMT
There may not be a lot but KC does have access to melee. All of the gargantuans (all seem good for this theme for their own reasons) the ranged diretrolls (if you take a mountainking), some of the lights, raluk with a jack, boomhowlers, slaughterhousers, sons of bragg.
Is it perfect no, but I don't think it should be in a ranged theme.
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Post by Trollock on Dec 21, 2017 9:35:05 GMT
There may not be a lot but KC does have access to melee. All of the gargantuans (all seem good for this theme for their own reasons) the ranged diretrolls (if you take a mountainking), some of the lights, raluk with a jack, boomhowlers, slaughterhousers, sons of bragg. Is it perfect no, but I don't think it should be in a ranged theme. The kings can crack ARM, sure, but taking one makes it really hard to maximize the free points. If you go with a strong battle group such as Mk + Bomber which seems very reasonable, it will cost you a free solo and that is really sad. Also, we are approaching a PoD setup. Allowing the Mauler in the theme would allow you to have Mauler + Bomber in the BG and still get 60 points of ranged stuff. You would have a functional list that is still centered around ranged units/WWs. Some casters can get away by playing Double bomber that they can buff up, and still keep the ranged theme, but many casters will not do well with such a set up, even if they should fit nicely in the theme. Jarl, Grissel 2, Gunnbjorn, Grim 1 etc would all like this theme in theory, but they end up with lists that either do not crack normal amounts of ARM, or lose out of free points, making them weaker over all, or they lose out on the snipe animus which is key for them.
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Post by greenjello on Dec 21, 2017 12:47:48 GMT
They are not very survivable (they were in MK2, but that doesnt matter). They are also fairly expensive. Rök IS a good melee heavy, but he is not allowed in KC since he is a character. Yeah, I see what you mean about expensive. They're still a bit more survivable than normal troopers, and cacophony is nice. Their melee and shooting abilities are unchanged. Seems to be a bug in Warroom, I can take Rok with Borka, in Kriel Company.
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Post by ninjapete on Dec 21, 2017 12:58:40 GMT
They are not very survivable (they were in MK2, but that doesnt matter). They are also fairly expensive. Rök IS a good melee heavy, but he is not allowed in KC since he is a character. Yeah, I see what you mean about expensive. They're still a bit more survivable than normal troopers, and cacophony is nice. Their melee and shooting abilities are unchanged. Seems to be a bug in Warroom, I can take Rok with Borka, in Kriel Company. That’s because he’s Borka’s character beast. You can always take the character beast that is bonded to your Warlock regardless of theme restrictions (So Doomy can always take Mulg, Gunnbjorn can always take Dozer & Smig, etc).
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Dec 21, 2017 13:45:37 GMT
There may not be a lot but KC does have access to melee. All of the gargantuans (all seem good for this theme for their own reasons) the ranged diretrolls (if you take a mountainking), some of the lights, raluk with a jack, boomhowlers, slaughterhousers, sons of bragg. Is it perfect no, but I don't think it should be in a ranged theme. The kings can crack ARM, sure, but taking one makes it really hard to maximize the free points. If you go with a strong battle group such as Mk + Bomber which seems very reasonable, it will cost you a free solo and that is really sad. Also, we are approaching a PoD setup. Allowing the Mauler in the theme would allow you to have Mauler + Bomber in the BG and still get 60 points of ranged stuff. You would have a functional list that is still centered around ranged units/WWs. Some casters can get away by playing Double bomber that they can buff up, and still keep the ranged theme, but many casters will not do well with such a set up, even if they should fit nicely in the theme. Jarl, Grissel 2, Gunnbjorn, Grim 1 etc would all like this theme in theory, but they end up with lists that either do not crack normal amounts of ARM, or lose out of free points, making them weaker over all, or they lose out on the snipe animus which is key for them. True, obviously locks that like a bigger battlegroup have little reason to go with an infantry theme, but I feel this is especially true for KC. Some locks that fit the best thematically should just stay away. Adding the mauler would do a lot for the theme. The threat of a mauler and a bomber gaurding your units (and visa versa) would add a much needed dynamic, the theme is just too onedimensional. We don't have that though, so have to make do, which is why I think we see so many lists focussing on several huge bases. Luckily for me, KC is my funlist so I don't care about power, just cool synergy, which allows me to take all those cool looking units, and play around raluk and a freebooter
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Dec 21, 2017 14:01:27 GMT
I was wondering, what's so awful about burrowers? They seem silly good, have grim (and/or runebearer) tag something with calamity, pop feat, release burrowers (to enable feat) and watch things die to effective rat8 pow16.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Dec 21, 2017 14:05:44 GMT
Lack of the Rage animus outside of paying for a Mountain King seems really sad, having only ranged warbeasts seems needlessly prohibitive
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mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
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Post by mazog on Dec 21, 2017 14:34:37 GMT
I think the burrower hate is a relic from the mark III transition, honestly. There are also very few casters who can effectively buff them, and they can only be taken in our least favorite theme force, which doesn't help. They do a pretty decent job as a tar pit, but in mark II they were killers that could get anywhere as they could burrow every other turn. The cost may not have been adjusted enough to match their new role, but in the couple games I played them they made a great tar pit, even keeping the snipers of a (admittedly not very good) khador player busy and backing away from my army for most of the game in one memorable example. Snipers don't like shooting at def 17 when they have to back off to not get engaged next turn.
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Post by Trollock on Dec 21, 2017 15:05:23 GMT
I was wondering, what's so awful about burrowers? They seem silly good, have grim (and/or runebearer) tag something with calamity, pop feat, release burrowers (to enable feat) and watch things die to effective rat8 pow16. They are probably OK with Grim 2. They are absolute trash with every other caster though. Try them and feel the disappointment. I gave them a fair shake early on. Going to really high DEF values against shooting seems nice. AD and pathfinder seem nice. DEF 13 is fine etc. Then you realize that they never do anything ever, ever basically, and 13 points is not really a cheap unit. Expecting them to retain their MK2 awesomeness was a bit optimistic (they were the best unit in the game back then imo) but they were nerfed in so many ways at once. It is like Mechanithralls. They were also crushed in the MK3 transition, but then they were buffed back up a bit in CID. They still are not good, but they at least got something. Burrowers still havent
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Post by greenjello on Dec 21, 2017 17:09:25 GMT
They are probably OK with Grim 2. They are absolute trash with every other caster though. Seem decent with Calandra. She likes DEF13 more than other casters, and she can fix their poor rat/mat. DEF13 makes them a bit more valuable than other units with her.
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Dec 21, 2017 17:18:11 GMT
In MK3 I've still assassinated 'casters with popped up Burrowers, via Grissel2, Calandra1, Grim1&2, but it takes a few more turns. I have not fielded a full unit this edition. Camped Focus on a warcaster also makes the assassination by Burrowers tech much less of a sure thing.
Pop up also takes a lot of time off my deathclock, because the placement parameters are so restrictive, so it's fiddly and perhaps annoying for my opponent to wait for me to get it just right.
Playing 8 points 'down' means the rest of the army has to be good at eliminating opposing threats to my warlock, OR able to be good infantry/lighter ARM killers regardless of whatever opposing models engage them. Currently in KC we don't have access to units of independently good killers that work both at range and after engaged (Scouts with 1" melee might fill that role) unless significant support models, per unit, are also included. So KC inadvertently skews me towards fielding the warbeasts that do act as good killers, making PoD more attractive.
With current Dec2017 model rules, KC for me is a theme I only consider if I want to field SPECIFIC unit(s) semi-competitively in a theme to maintain the 'free' models bonus. This may change with subsequent CIDs. Hopefully.
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