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Post by Trollock on Dec 15, 2017 8:34:20 GMT
I consider pillowfisted to be anytime where a model is going to need significant buffs in order to one round similarly costed models. By significant I'm talking feat level buffs like Skarre1 or Butcher1's feats or multiple small buffs such as Ragman + Aiyana. If you need buffing like that just to kill something of equal value, you're either pillowfisted of the model you're going after is known for its defensive buffs. Is a Juggernaught pillow fisted? We have this discussion all the time in the troll forums, cause our beasts "are so pillow fisted" that they can not one round a 12 point juggernaught... A Juggernaught will come nowhere near to one rounding itself though with out some serious damage buffs. In MK2 we expected everything to be able to one round a heavy. That is why we didnt really play jacks back then, cause they died to anything anyway. Nowadays, we have to accept that some things can not one round a heavy, but they can still be useful. The Juggernaught is the prime example. It is very useful, and has become some kind of "golden standard" for the cheap heavy. All the theorycraft we do assumes we are punching an ARM 20 heavy. Almost anything in the game will be hard pressed to one round that thing unaided, ESPECIALLY the juggernaught itself. Yet few players dispute that a Juggernaught is useful.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Dec 15, 2017 11:35:50 GMT
Funny fact is that even a fully focused Juggernaut can't silence a Juggernaut by one round without aid in the average rolls, alothough it surely cripple its target when it could attack. And Juggernaut's damage output is above average compared by the other melee concentrated warjacks.
Well, a tool to cripple a warjack is usually enough, because with a pair they will reliably silence a heavy or cripple a colossal, and for the warjacks losing some systems means that it is not functional even if it is alive.
But it is safe to say that something that can't beat the model with same class is have a problem.
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Post by jisidro on Dec 15, 2017 12:35:51 GMT
Problem is a lot of the budget heavies are outliers... Should not be standard. They just hit too hard for their points.
Juggernaut is POW 19, the highest non-huge base power available anywhere. If this is pillowfisted everything/nothing is pillowfisted. Marauder goes up to POW 20 with combo. POW 16 seems kinda perfect for a cheap heavy, add +4 POW and a slam and it's offensive power and disruption unmatched by 99% of heavies. Ironclad, POW 18 with KD option. Once again, hits as hard as elite heavies and with a KD option to boot. Crusader, POW 18 crit fire = no special effects... just POW 18, as much as a 19pt stalker warping STR, 1 under a 21cost Gethorix warping strenght or base Mulg POW. Not bad for 10pts.
These guys got a huge buff by gaining 0.5" threat on the reach guys in the changes to mark3, MAT buff and, ofc, power-up. The chassis is also works in their favor because they aren't slower than the faction in general and so tend to look good when comparing just the dmg output and resilience. Crusader is the most honest of them as a slow pure beat stick but even him hits to hard for his points IMO.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Dec 15, 2017 12:36:13 GMT
Funny fact is that even a fully focused Juggernaut can't silence a Juggernaut by one round without aid in the average rolls, alothough it surely cripple its target when it could attack. And Juggernaut's damage output is above average compared by the other melee concentrated warjacks. Well, a tool to cripple a warjack is usually enough, because with a pair they will reliably silence a heavy or cripple a colossal, and for the warjacks losing some systems means that it is not functional even if it is alive. But it is safe to say that something that can't beat the model with same class is have a problem. I think you're contradicting yourself here. You say the Juggernaut is one of the most powerful melee jacks, yet can't beat itself, but this is fine because it's also the most durable (as well as the most powerful). With lucky rolls for columns, maybe it can cripple itself. Then you say that something that can't beat itself (or similar) is a problem. So which is it exactly?
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Post by borderprince on Dec 15, 2017 13:37:13 GMT
Problem is a lot of the budget heavies are outliers... Should not be standard. They just hit too hard for their points. Marauder goes up to POW 20 with combo. POW 16 seems kinda perfect for a cheap heavy, add +4 POW and a slam and it's offensive power and disruption unmatched by 99% of heavies. Not really disputing the general idea (although the budget heavies lack many/reliable utility features, which presumably explains the lower cost in part). But for the Marauder it's worth remembering that while it can get to POW20, it's then limited to a single attack as it has no ability to follow the target it's just slammed away. I don't think that's a bad thing, but it does limit the damage output compared to other heavies.
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Post by jisidro on Dec 15, 2017 14:11:56 GMT
Problem is a lot of the budget heavies are outliers... Should not be standard. They just hit too hard for their points. Marauder goes up to POW 20 with combo. POW 16 seems kinda perfect for a cheap heavy, add +4 POW and a slam and it's offensive power and disruption unmatched by 99% of heavies. Not really disputing the general idea (although the budget heavies lack many/reliable utility features, which presumably explains the lower cost in part). But for the Marauder it's worth remembering that while it can get to POW20, it's then limited to a single attack as it has no ability to follow the target it's just slammed away. I don't think that's a bad thing, but it does limit the damage output compared to other heavies.
If it was expensive it would be an issue but as a 10pt warjack... Also, the possibilities you can gain from multiples KD, to extra die of damage to LOS clearing are just so many that I don't think it really counts as situational...
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Post by killroundears on Dec 15, 2017 22:54:52 GMT
Problem is a lot of the budget heavies are outliers... Should not be standard. They just hit too hard for their points. Juggernaut is POW 19, the highest non-huge base power available anywhere. If this is pillowfisted everything/nothing is pillowfisted. Marauder goes up to POW 20 with combo. POW 16 seems kinda perfect for a cheap heavy, add +4 POW and a slam and it's offensive power and disruption unmatched by 99% of heavies. Ironclad, POW 18 with KD option. Once again, hits as hard as elite heavies and with a KD option to boot. Crusader, POW 18 crit fire = no special effects... just POW 18, as much as a 19pt stalker warping STR, 1 under a 21cost Gethorix warping strenght or base Mulg POW. Not bad for 10pts. These guys got a huge buff by gaining 0.5" threat on the reach guys in the changes to mark3, MAT buff and, ofc, power-up. The chassis is also works in their favor because they aren't slower than the faction in general and so tend to look good when comparing just the dmg output and resilience. Crusader is the most honest of them as a slow pure beat stick but even him hits to hard for his points IMO. Crusader realistically is a base pow 20. When have they ever been sighted without a choir. So yeah crusaders hit even harder than juggys base (in my mind. Like i treat gladiators as pow 18 due to enrage not pow 16)
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Post by droopingpuppy on Dec 16, 2017 11:04:15 GMT
Funny fact is that even a fully focused Juggernaut can't silence a Juggernaut by one round without aid in the average rolls, alothough it surely cripple its target when it could attack. And Juggernaut's damage output is above average compared by the other melee concentrated warjacks. Well, a tool to cripple a warjack is usually enough, because with a pair they will reliably silence a heavy or cripple a colossal, and for the warjacks losing some systems means that it is not functional even if it is alive. But it is safe to say that something that can't beat the model with same class is have a problem. I think you're contradicting yourself here. You say the Juggernaut is one of the most powerful melee jacks, yet can't beat itself, but this is fine because it's also the most durable (as well as the most powerful). With lucky rolls for columns, maybe it can cripple itself. Then you say that something that can't beat itself (or similar) is a problem. So which is it exactly? No it have no contradiction. It is not so easy to simply kill a heavy outright by only one model(unless it is a colossal or gargantuan), so we don't need expect that. But many heavies are able to cripple enemy heavy in melee, and that's the point. If a heavy can't do that and also doesn't have ranged capability or utility it is something wrong.
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Post by macdaddy on Dec 16, 2017 23:27:48 GMT
Problem is a lot of the budget heavies are outliers... Should not be standard. They just hit too hard for their points. Juggernaut is POW 19, the highest non-huge base power available anywhere. If this is pillowfisted everything/nothing is pillowfisted. Marauder goes up to POW 20 with combo. POW 16 seems kinda perfect for a cheap heavy, add +4 POW and a slam and it's offensive power and disruption unmatched by 99% of heavies. Ironclad, POW 18 with KD option. Once again, hits as hard as elite heavies and with a KD option to boot. Crusader, POW 18 crit fire = no special effects... just POW 18, as much as a 19pt stalker warping STR, 1 under a 21cost Gethorix warping strenght or base Mulg POW. Not bad for 10pts. These guys got a huge buff by gaining 0.5" threat on the reach guys in the changes to mark3, MAT buff and, ofc, power-up. The chassis is also works in their favor because they aren't slower than the faction in general and so tend to look good when comparing just the dmg output and resilience. Crusader is the most honest of them as a slow pure beat stick but even him hits to hard for his points IMO. Crusader realistically is a base pow 20. When have they ever been sighted without a choir. So yeah crusaders hit even harder than juggys base (in my mind. Like i treat gladiators as pow 18 due to enrage not pow 16) Mat 7 is a thing you know. The crusader also requires a minimum 4 Point investment to hit 1 Pow higher than a juggy with lower accuracy and durability. Points invested in support is a big consideration a lot of people forget as it effectiveley increases the cost of the model being supported (especially if the support is like Chior and serves about 0 other purpose) Using your logic all Skorne beasts actually always have +2 Speed and Pathfinder, because what skorne List is lacking access to Rush?...or we could say “All Troll Units are actually +2 Mat because you never see Troll infantry without a fell caller.”
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Post by droopingpuppy on Dec 17, 2017 5:16:56 GMT
Well, MAT 6&P+S 20 is much powerful than MAT 7&P+S 19 in the reality. MAT 7 is only good against DEF 14, no less or no more - both MAT 6 and 7 needs to boost their attack roll against enemies above DEF 14 anyways, both of them are better off making additional melee attack rather than boost against DEF 13 or below. And, almost all warjacks are stay at DEF 13 at most, only leaves Seraph and Warfwolf species. You need to remember that DEF buff is rare than ARM buff to. So what you really want MAT 7 is only against these species or Haley3 heavy warjack spam list, and against every single list MAT 6 P+S 20 is much superior than that.
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Post by greytemplar on Dec 17, 2017 5:44:36 GMT
Well, MAT 6&P+S 20 is much powerful than MAT 7&P+S 19 in the reality. MAT 7 is only good against DEF 14, no less or no more - both MAT 6 and 7 needs to boost their attack roll against enemies above DEF 14 anyways, both of them are better off making additional melee attack rather than boost against DEF 13 or below. And, almost all warjacks are stay at DEF 13 at most, only leaves Seraph and Warfwolf species. You need to remember that DEF buff is rare than ARM buff to. So what you really want MAT 7 is only against these species or Haley3 heavy warjack spam list, and against every single list MAT 6 P+S 20 is much superior than that. Not really. Mat7 is huge against anything more than Def10. Once stuff is above def10, crusaders struggle to kill it because they'll miss too many of their attacks, and pow20 doesn't make up for it in practice. Def12 is where Crusaders need to start boosting to hit, which is a losing proposition for them. Mat7 is a massive advantage, coupled with native P+S19 and a good crit effect. Plus 1 more armor and 2 more boxes.
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Post by gobber on Dec 17, 2017 6:47:37 GMT
Well, MAT 6&P+S 20 is much powerful than MAT 7&P+S 19 in the reality. MAT 7 is only good against DEF 14, no less or no more - both MAT 6 and 7 needs to boost their attack roll against enemies above DEF 14 anyways, both of them are better off making additional melee attack rather than boost against DEF 13 or below. And, almost all warjacks are stay at DEF 13 at most, only leaves Seraph and Warfwolf species. You need to remember that DEF buff is rare than ARM buff to. So what you really want MAT 7 is only against these species or Haley3 heavy warjack spam list, and against every single list MAT 6 P+S 20 is much superior than that. Mat7 is statistically valuable in most games, not just the def skews you state. Against all the def12 in the game, Mat7 attacks have an 83.33% chance to hit, or a 48.2% chance to hit all 4 primary attacks. Mat6 has 72.22% to hit, or a 27.7% chance to hit all 4 primary attacks. That increase in miss chance usually outweighs the extra pow.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Dec 17, 2017 9:46:56 GMT
Not really. I do understand MAT 6 miss more times than MAT 7(and I have seen a Stormwall miss 2 attacks of its 5 melee attacks against my Stormclad in a game), but the end result justfies the risk.
Let's do some math again,, as I do several times ago.
As you know, most heavies have DEF around 10 to 12. Few heavies reach to 13+, but above 12 are only fragile things even scared by an attack with boosted attack roll. But anyway, let's think about the things DEF 10 to 13.
The example for MAT 7& P+S 19 would be Juggernaut(I prefer Stormclad, though), and Crusader&Battle for MAT 6& P+S 20.
Against a Juggernaut(10/20): Juggernaut: 3+(97.22%) to hit, average 6.0 damage on a hit -> 5.833 average damage(damage/hit). Crusader: 4+(91.66%) to hit, average 7.0 damage on a hit -> 6.416 average damage. -Crusader wins(0/1).
Crusader/Titan(10/19) Juggernaut: 3+(97.22%) to hit, average 7.0 damage on a hit -> 6.805 average damage. Crusader: 4+(91.66%) to hit, average 7.0 damage on a hit -> 7.333 average damage. -Crusader wins, again(0/2).
Titan Sentry(10/21) Juggernaut: 3+(97.22%) to hit, average 5.0 damage on a hit -> 4.861 average damage. Crusader: 4+(91.66%) to hit, average 6.0 damage on a hit -> 5.5 average damage. -Crusader wins(0/3).
Hammersmith(11/19) Juggernaut: 4+(91.66%) to hit, average 7.0 damage on a hit -> 6.416 average damage. Crusader: 5+(83.33%) to hit, average 8.0 damage on a hit -> 6.666 average damage. -Crusader wins(0/4).
Centurion(11/21) Juggernaut: 4+(91.66%) to hit, average 5.0 damage on a hit -> 4.583 average damage. Crusader: 5+(83.33%) to hit, average 6.0 damage on a hit -> 5.0 average damage. -Crusader wins(0/5).
Centurion+Arcane Shield(11/24) Juggernaut: 4+(91.66%) to hit, average 2.277 damage on a hit -> 2.087 average damage. -boosted damage roll makes 5.523 damage on a hit -> 5.062 average damage. Crusader: 5+(83.33%) to hit, average 3.111 damage on a hit -> 2.592 average damage. -boosted damage roll makes 6.504 damage on a hit -> 5.42 average damage. -Crusader wins(0/6).
Ironclad/Shyeel chassis(12/18) Juggernaut: 5+(83.33%) to hit, average 8.0 damage on a hit -> 6.666 average damage. Crusader: 6+(72.22%) to hit, average 9.0 damage on a hit -> 6.5 average damage. -Juggernaut wins, finally(1/6).
Ironclad+Arcane Shield(12/21) Juggernaut: 5+(83.33%) to hit, average 5.0 damage on a hit -> 4.166 average damage. Crusader: 6+(72.22%) to hit, average 6.0 damage on a hit -> 4.333 average damage. -Crusader wins(1/7).
Stormclad/Vyre chassis(12/19) Juggernaut: 5+(83.33%) to hit, average 7.0 damage on a hit -> 5.833 average damage. Crusader: 6+(72.22%) to hit, average 8.0 damage on a hit -> 5.777 average damage. -Juggernaut wins(2/7).
Stormclad+Arcane Shield(12/22) Juggernaut: 5+(83.33%) to hit, average 4.027 damage on a hit -> 3.356 average damage. Crusader: 6+(72.22%) to hit, average 5.0 damage on a hit -> 3.611 average damage. -Crusader wins(2/8).
Dire Troll+Protective Aura(12/20) Juggernaut: 5+(83.33%) to hit, average 6.0 damage on a hit -> 5.0 average damage. Crusader: 6+(72.22%) to hit, average 7.0 damage on a hit -> 5.055 average damage. -Crusader wins... but only slightly so it is safe to say to be tied.
Slayer(13/17) Juggernaut: 6+(72.22%) to hit, average 9.0 damage on a hit -> 6.5 average damage. -boosted attack roll: 95.37% to hit -> 8.583 average damage. Crusader: 7+(58.33%) to hit, average 10.0 damage on a hit -> 5.833 average damage. -boosted attack roll: 90.74% to hit -> 9.074 average damage. -Juggernaut wins(3/8). Although Crusader is better if booste the attack roll, but the result says you better off making additional attack anyways so Juggernaut is better.
Then why MAT 7 is better? It is P+S what is really important to crack armor! And it is hard to gain as well, for a tool for knocked down or reduce the DEF are not so rare. More important thing is that two of three sections that Juggernaut is better are Ironclad/Stormclad without Arcane Shield, which is almost never happens in the real games or you must be bring a dispel method. So, Crusader with Hymm of Battle is plainly better.
As I said, if the opponent is DEF 14 then it is true that MAT 7 works much better than 6, because MAT 7 can hit them by 7+ and you better off making additional attack, while MAT 6 needs to boost the attack roll against DEF 14. But, armors with DEF 14 comes really rarely, unless you will see storming warpwolves or Haley3 heavy warjack spam all the times. Or, your Retribution friend's warjacks make you to envy for MAT 7&P+S 19 rather than MAT 6, because their DEF is not that low but their ARM is fragile. But the end result for that is superficial, and Crusader is much better at almost any opponent armors.
Sure, miss occurs sometimes, and I have seen a MAT 6 Stormwall miss 2/5 blows against my DEF 12 Stormclad in a game. I don't deny the fact that individual rolls may spiked or rolled bad. But if you rolls toooooooooo much(and we should, for we needs to roll the dice all the times when we play WM&H), you will know that it generally scores not too far from the average.
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Post by killroundears on Dec 17, 2017 11:36:57 GMT
Crusader realistically is a base pow 20. When have they ever been sighted without a choir. So yeah crusaders hit even harder than juggys base (in my mind. Like i treat gladiators as pow 18 due to enrage not pow 16) Mat 7 is a thing you know. The crusader also requires a minimum 4 Point investment to hit 1 Pow higher than a juggy with lower accuracy and durability. Points invested in support is a big consideration a lot of people forget as it effectiveley increases the cost of the model being supported (especially if the support is like Chior and serves about 0 other purpose) Using your logic all Skorne beasts actually always have +2 Speed and Pathfinder, because what skorne List is lacking access to Rush?...or we could say “All Troll Units are actually +2 Mat because you never see Troll infantry without a fell caller.” i said hit harder, not hit more accurately. Also, choir cost four points. four out of 100+ and their cost gets spread out across an entire battlegroup and also serves as delivery / defensive tech through passage and warding. I always include beast handlers into skorne beast stats. i do not include a 15pt heavy warbeasts animus into them. miles different. Theres loads of no gladiator skorne builds too. its not the same as choir or handlers you're just extrapolating beyond a level thats reasonable
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Post by macdaddy on Dec 17, 2017 13:42:50 GMT
Except I’m not. I’m just using your logic in other cases. A 15 Point Beast spread out across an entire BG (using same logic you are using for Chior and handlers) is also only a marginal increase in cost. 5 beasts BG is only 3 per beast, also, unlike the Chior, The gladiator is a pretty darn solid heavy warbeast that participates outside of casting rush. Basically what you are saying is the crusader is actually 11 points (1 extra point for the Chior member that follows him around assuming you have 4-6 jacks) which when you compare to the juggy seems as if the juggy is above the curve. For 1 more Point you get: 1: +1 Arm 2: +2 Boxes 3:+1Mat 4: +1 Base Pow. (If Chior sing something other than battle Crusader is only Pow 18 which we have to consider) Accuracy is important in resolving hitting power averages. The more attacks you can reliably hit, the more likely you are to Do more damage. If you are Mat 1 it is rarely going to matter what your P+S is as you’ll need 9’s just to hit Def10....there’s exceptions like KD, Stationary, but that adds unnecessary Baggage to an already wheighty Descussion. droopingpuppy +1 Mat is way more relevant than +1 Pow.. IME rolling hard sixes is some of the diciest moments in my gaming. This is for my opponents too. It for certain matters more against Def13 or 14. Needing 7’s to Hit is the boost threshold and the crusader is really gonna struggle to kill anything Def 13-14. Also, in your math are you including bought attacks? Because that’s a big deal. What makes Mat relevant IS WHEN YOU USE A LARGER VOLUME OF ATTACKS. (Sorry for caps bold doesn’t work on my phone) When you only give each model 2 attacks, it skews the math to make Mat look less relevant. You honestly need to go back and redo all of that math assuming each jack buys 3 extra attacks (or 2 extra assuming charge) to give us better and more precise results.
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