seul
Demo Gamer
Posts: 15
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Post by seul on Dec 13, 2017 3:43:56 GMT
I see a lot of references to pillow fisted. Would you consider p+s 15, 16, or 17 pillow fisted? I believe an average heavy warjack is about 16.6 p+s, while a heavy beast is 15.7.
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Post by macdaddy on Dec 13, 2017 3:49:29 GMT
Pillow fisted isn’t just about base pow. EG: Earthborns are only Pow 15 but with all the buffs in trolls they can get to Pow 19 without specific caster buffs.
Pillow fisted is normally a model with a combination of a lower pow (14 or 15 on a heavy) but little ways to meaningfully increase that pow.
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Post by nightdragon on Dec 13, 2017 6:20:52 GMT
Agreed, 15 or lower with limited buffs, or even 16 with almost no buffs. 17 is alright, 18 is normal, 19+ is good. Basically what I understand and how I use it, "pillowfisted" means this model cannot seriously damage an equivalent model in one round. If my heavy gets fully loaded and attacks another heavy, what happens? Does my heavy do enough damage on average to cripple it, or am I going to scratch the paint and get wrecked next turn? Now that's not perfect, consider an Ironclad (P+S 18) against a Juggernaut. Assuming 3 focus, no need to charge, all attacks hit, I only do on average 21 damage out of a Juggernaut's 34 boxes. That could easily leave a Juggernaut fully functional, and the return attack cripples the Ironclad more often than not. But, by my above criteria, I do not consider the Ironclad pillowfisted.
It's an ambiguous term, that you shouldn't waste your time trying to define with numbers. Go by feel and past experience, and you'll figure out your own threshold for how much damage a model provides and how much you need for specific tasks.
Looking at average heavy warjack POW isn't really useful either. In reality you're going to only make one attack with the crap weapon, and all the rest with the good weapon. An Ironclad averages POW 16 over the two weapons, but give it three focus and it averages to 17.2 (makes four P+S 18 attacks, one P+S 14 attack). But even that isn't a super relevant way to think about it.
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regleant
Junior Strategist
Sometimes things go right
Posts: 267
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Post by regleant on Dec 13, 2017 8:18:15 GMT
After playing Farrow with Dr. Arkadius and effective POW 24 War Hogs, everything else has been Pillow-Fisted by comparison. Can I 1-round a colossal? If not, then it is Pillow-Fisted and a disappointment to put on the table.
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Post by borderprince on Dec 13, 2017 8:21:43 GMT
People also sometimes use pillow-fisted to refer to a list as a whole, rather than the models in it.
That gets more complex, as a list can include a couple of hard-hitting models and/or buffs, but still be quite a pillow-fisted list in relation to some common builds. For example, including a couple of P+S18 models and maybe one buff to their hitting power (say Aiyana, as she's quite widely available) - that list would still have issues against a Khador build with 5 or 6 Juggernaut-chassis jacks.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Dec 13, 2017 8:53:22 GMT
People also sometimes use pillow-fisted to refer to a list as a whole, rather than the models in it. That gets more complex, as a list can include a couple of hard-hitting models and/or buffs, but still be quite a pillow-fisted list in relation to some common builds. For example, including a couple of P+S18 models and maybe one buff to their hitting power (say Aiyana, as she's quite widely available) - that list would still have issues against a Khador build with 5 or 6 Juggernaut-chassis jacks. Not being able to chew through 170-234 ARM 20 boxes isn't really the definition of pillow fisted though, as that list is basically designed to make your opponent drop their hardest hitting list.
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Post by W0lfBane on Dec 13, 2017 12:56:05 GMT
I personally would say pow 16 with no way to increase it would be my definition of pillow fisted
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Post by smoothcriminal on Dec 13, 2017 13:46:56 GMT
Heavy below pow 18. Almost all heavies need a damage/attack volume buff to one-round other heavies. But below pow 18 even those aren't enough.
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Post by macdaddy on Dec 13, 2017 13:54:26 GMT
Heavy below pow 18. Almost all heavies need a damage/attack volume buff to one-round other heavies. But below pow 18 even those aren't enough. That's not necessarily true. Not every single Heavy is a khador jack. Average heavy is Arm 19 and about 30 boxes. Assuming you either get a free charge or have 4 Fury/Foc a pow 16 heavy with a single +2 swing in his P+S can just about one round the average arm 19 heavy. You also have heavies like Cryx jacks, warpwolves, and Legion Flying heavies that rely on Def over arm and boxes. Meaning all those Mat 7 jacks have way better stock into them. Any heavy that can kill the average heavy with a buff or 2 is by no means pillow fisted. I think the community is traumatized by Khador Jacks and everyone feels they need Heavies that can easily one round a Khador heavy. But we forget Khador heavies are the exception to the standard.
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Post by welshhoppo on Dec 13, 2017 16:55:58 GMT
If it can't one round an arcane shielded stormwall then its pillow fisted.
Just kidding, but it does vary from faction to faction. What's pillow fisted to khador might not be pillow fisted to Retribution.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Dec 14, 2017 2:40:10 GMT
Heavy below pow 18. Almost all heavies need a damage/attack volume buff to one-round other heavies. But below pow 18 even those aren't enough. That's not necessarily true. Not every single Heavy is a khador jack. Average heavy is Arm 19 and about 30 boxes. Assuming you either get a free charge or have 4 Fury/Foc a pow 16 heavy with a single +2 swing in his P+S can just about one round the average arm 19 heavy. You also have heavies like Cryx jacks, warpwolves, and Legion Flying heavies that rely on Def over arm and boxes. Meaning all those Mat 7 jacks have way better stock into them. Any heavy that can kill the average heavy with a buff or 2 is by no means pillow fisted. I think the community is traumatized by Khador Jacks and everyone feels they need Heavies that can easily one round a Khador heavy. But we forget Khador heavies are the exception to the standard. Khador heavy must be the example because they have the most durable unbuffed global stat(tie with Trollbloods if you accept Protrctive Aura is default for Trollbloods). So, if something can crack Khadoran heavies well, it means that it can kill most heavies they can face. And because the models are able to make enough damage to cripple a Juggernaut, they will cripple most heavies much easier as well. Just middle on the ground is not so ideal for the standard because what you need would be a solution for crack most armors. Things with too much ARM such as ARM 19(or 18+1 / 19+2) jack with ARM buff would be a kind of skew and you need to have a solution, of course. But most factions are stay at ARM 20 or less. Only Cygnar can make one warjack to be ARM 21 to 24 without specific caster support if I remember correctly, if exclude +X ARM against melee/ranged buff. There are some ARM 21 jack/beasts, but only for the specific one, not chassis/species wide. But, Juggernaut chassis and Dire Trolls with Protective Aura has ARM 20 all the times. So the most high spammable&common ARM stat would be 20. Also, most factions are actually have some ways to dispatching ARM 20 or less targets without a caster specific buff as well(although ARM 20&34 damage box is not so easy target anyways), but against ARM 21+ most factions are need for their high ranked hard hitter to deal with it. It is no wonder that we are aim for Khador heavy. In short, Khadoran heavies are picked for the standard of armor cracking because a model that is able to crack Khadoran armor is also able to kill most armors they can face(and most targets are easy prey than a Juggernaut), and many factions are not need to pick a specific caster or making a list to deal with only one to three models with ARM 20 or less.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Dec 14, 2017 8:19:39 GMT
You're conflating two different concepts here, Puppy.
If you're building an ARM-cracking list, then absolutely the khador-trollblood heavy should be your standard by which you're measured since your list has a purpose of breaking through those heavies. If you're evaluating if your heavies are pillow-fisted, then you should be evaluating the whole game, at which point the ARM-19 (often as low as 18) heavy is closer to the standard. If I'm building a generalist list, I don't consider it to have inadequate ARM-cracking power if it's unable to deal with 6 juggernauts - that list is a hard skew and requires a specific counter (or sneaky game play). Two separate purposes, two separate measures.
-und_ed
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Post by welshhoppo on Dec 14, 2017 9:09:24 GMT
Well...... 6 Khador heavies can find their way into a combined arms list.
Vladimir Tzepesci, The Dark Prince - WJ: +28 - Marauder - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10) - Marauder - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10) - Marauder - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 8) - Marauder - PC: 10 - Marauder - PC: 10 - Marauder - PC: 10
Winter Guard Rifle Corps - Leader & 5 Grunts: 8 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 Winter Guard Rifle Corps - Leader & 5 Grunts: 8 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 Winter Guard Rifle Corps - Leader & 5 Grunts: 8 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 Winter Guard Mortar Crew - Gunner & Grunt: 0 Winter Guard Mortar Crew - Gunner & Grunt: 0
Granted, marauders are pretty pillow fisted.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Dec 14, 2017 9:46:23 GMT
I consider pillowfisted to be anytime where a model is going to need significant buffs in order to one round similarly costed models. By significant I'm talking feat level buffs like Skarre1 or Butcher1's feats or multiple small buffs such as Ragman + Aiyana. If you need buffing like that just to kill something of equal value, you're either pillowfisted of the model you're going after is known for its defensive buffs.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Dec 14, 2017 11:16:29 GMT
You're conflating two different concepts here, Puppy. If you're building an ARM-cracking list, then absolutely the khador-trollblood heavy should be your standard by which you're measured since your list has a purpose of breaking through those heavies. If you're evaluating if your heavies are pillow-fisted, then you should be evaluating the whole game, at which point the ARM-19 (often as low as 18) heavy is closer to the standard. If I'm building a generalist list, I don't consider it to have inadequate ARM-cracking power if it's unable to deal with 6 juggernauts - that list is a hard skew and requires a specific counter (or sneaky game play). Two separate purposes, two separate measures. -und_ed No, if you want an ARM cracking list then you must be get rid of absurd amount of armor such as ARM 22/24(only for Centurion) Cygnar heavy or colossal, or want to deal with the heavy spam list(about 4+ heavies). But even in the normal lists you need a tool to deal with one or two heavy, because most of us will put at least one heavy warjack/beast almost all days on a 75 point list. Most of them will have ARM stat around 19 or even better. And, able to deal with a Juggernaut would be a proof to deal with most heavies without skew you will face. Able to deal with the enemy by 50% and able to deal with the enemy by 75% have a hugh diffrence, and against crack armor is diffrent with against infantries, because if you hit much harder then you can kill the enemy much faster. Juggernaut is not so easy prey for the single model/unit, especially for the unbuffed warjack/beasts. Even a Juggernaut can't silence the opponent's Juggernaut outright without some aid, only able to reduce about 75% of its damage box by average if it is fully fueled and make three additional attacks(25.546 average). But, with the same P+S it is able to reduce 94.5% of a Crusader's damage box, or kill a Titan Gladiator by average(30.244 average). So, if you aim for the Juggernaut, you may have a solution to against a Juggernaut, and the solution is much effective against the other heavies, meaning that the solution is usually enough armor cracking tool you needed in the most times. And think about ARM buffs around the games, that makes the enemy's beatsticks much harder. Even in such cases a tool for the Juggernaut can deal with them in a pinch as well. I do think that you should need an armor cracking solution for the skew lists, but you need to have at least some degree of armor cracking tool all the times, or you will need for the plan B more often. That's why we need for the minimum solution for crack armor.
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