Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Dec 11, 2017 1:02:59 GMT
That said, while i love timed turns, holy christ on a candlestick do i absolutely loathe deathclock. Like with a passion hate that mechanic. Not only does it basically compel adding in another peripheral into playing warmachine (some people go absolutely apeshit on the game-aid bric-a-brac), but its the source of more (and imho, often needless) complexity into the turn infrastructure. While I know its meant to solve several issues with game turn infrastructure both at the turn and event level, I personally don't think what it solves is worth what it creates. Hehe. I feel exactly that way about timed turns. At least in death clock I can take some quick turns to make up for a long turn, but timed turns just screws you over just when you need it the most. That mechanic needs to die in the most painful of fires. That being said I like the principle of timing for tournaments. It's a damned sight better than old school Warhammer events where a primarily ranged player could take his sweet time and win the game because you only played 4 turns out of a 6-turn game (in which the close-combat army only starts to claw its way back from turn #4 onwards). Clocks really do solve problems like that very neatly. I just don't see them as essential or even necessary for non-tournament play. (well, most of the time, anyway. I have one mate who plays so damned slowly in every system that our group have started putting a clock on him just so we can finish a game in an evening) -und_ed Merits of deathclock vs. timed turns aside, i totally agree with "Firetruck static event times not in some manner tied to turns" as that encourages clock chew horseshit exactly as you describe. Awful. Tournaments need to be timed otherwise rounds can take a crazy long time. I agree with "slow player" thing too. Timed turns were awesome because there's a member of our gaming crew who can turn a 15 point game into a three hour affair due to hemming and / or possibly hawing and / or possibly looking up every rule for everything he wants to do, ever.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Dec 11, 2017 1:24:22 GMT
I agree with "slow player" thing too. Timed turns were awesome because there's a member of our gaming crew who can turn a 15 point game into a three hour affair due to hemming and / or possibly hawing and / or possibly looking up every rule for everything he wants to do, ever. In my experience whenever I see someone doing this they either don't know the game, don't trust themselves, or they are treating the game the same way they would treat bomb disposal or rocket surgery. (Yes, I said "rocket surgery.") Talk to them, find out what their problem is and help them - which will help you. If they don't know the game, talk with them during the turn to help them learn. If they don't trust themselves, give them reassurance after each turn or the game on the things they did right. If they are treating every move as a "red wire or blue wire?" kind of conundrum then the proper application of sarcastic berating should help, as well as a turn clock set at 1.5 to 2 times tournament turn length. Yeah, you want to win, but you still need to apply the right amount of "don't give a damn" to the game.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Dec 11, 2017 1:55:59 GMT
FWIW, on wednesday nights I play what I want and take whatever comes. If my opponent(in our meta it's exceptionally rare to ask about more than faction before list pick) declares something that's going to be an absolute slaughter, say trolls band of heroes into testament, I'll ask to swap my list to my secondary, usually something really quick and easy to grab and play (think kreoss 1 warjack heavy pop and drop). It has yet to either tick someone off or result in a boring/bad game.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Dec 11, 2017 8:24:18 GMT
The bomb disposal guy is a little tricky.
Many players in my meta (myself included) really like the chess-like aspect of tabletop miniature gaming. Can I see what you're planning? can I set an effective trap? can I get out of a sprung trap? I love these things, and presume my opponents do too. Berating them for doing exactly what I enjoy seems churlish at best. The clock is instead a nice neutral arbiter of time-wastage to keep it all reasonable. It also really helps if we start gaming on a week-night at between 7 and 8 and are trying to fit in two games before midnight.
That being said, these are all niche cases. For non-tournament events, I stand by my original statement - the clock is absolutely not necessary, and should only be included if it adds to the enjoyment of both players.
-und_ed
P.S. Like I said above, I do think the game has hit a point where 2-list play is almost mandatory for a better gaming experience. Given the power of shooting in the game, I'd go as far as to say that the same applies for steamroller (or some other similar scenario that prevents a shooting army frm just backing off and gunning the other guy down), as much as I know I'm poking the Blarg on this one.
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Post by welshhoppo on Dec 11, 2017 10:12:47 GMT
Chess is also played on clock as well.
Just to make sure one of the most boring games on earth isn't even more boring.
Drinking chess however.....
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Dec 11, 2017 11:46:17 GMT
We have a local guy who is extremely methodical and basically plays either Immortal spam or Praetorian spam and regularly has 30+ dudes on the table. Given the chance he will happily take 5 hours to play out a 75 point game so that he can run through every possibility and plan his turn perfectly.
It used to bug the shit out of me but after a while I got used to it. Fortunately he is well aware of this and is more than happy to put himself on a death clock in a casual setting. It helps that he's damn good (you would be too if you basically played the same 2.5 lists for 4 years) and it's widely acknowledged in our community that the clock is your only real win condition against him.
Using a clock or Steamroller or list pairs as part of a casual game day is fine if that's what your community wants to do but it definitely shouldn't be forced on people. I know that at my local store everyone is playing tournament lists and I've come to accept that if I bring a janky list that I wanna try it'll put me at a disadvantage, though most of the group are good enough not to intentionally counterpick me. It's all about what you and your people are comfortable with.
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Post by GumbaFish on Dec 11, 2017 14:49:43 GMT
In regards to the clock I will often set a 60 minute timer for myself and take track of turns. We don't use it as a win condition on weekly gaming nights but I honestly find just being aware of my time makes me play faster without feeling rushed. I think this really helps if you want to play two games in a night because it keeps things moving along.
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Post by Azuresun on Dec 11, 2017 15:38:39 GMT
That said, while i love timed turns, holy christ on a candlestick do i absolutely loathe deathclock. Like with a passion hate that mechanic. Not only does it basically compel adding in another peripheral into playing warmachine (some people go absolutely apeshit on the game-aid bric-a-brac), but its the source of more (and imho, often needless) complexity into the turn infrastructure. While I know its meant to solve several issues with game turn infrastructure both at the turn and event level, I personally don't think what it solves is worth what it creates. My only issue with deathclock comes when I hear people talking about making lists designed to clock out an opponent as a separate win condition from anything happening on the table. That absolutely should not be possible.
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Post by GumbaFish on Dec 11, 2017 15:53:07 GMT
That said, while i love timed turns, holy christ on a candlestick do i absolutely loathe deathclock. Like with a passion hate that mechanic. Not only does it basically compel adding in another peripheral into playing warmachine (some people go absolutely apeshit on the game-aid bric-a-brac), but its the source of more (and imho, often needless) complexity into the turn infrastructure. While I know its meant to solve several issues with game turn infrastructure both at the turn and event level, I personally don't think what it solves is worth what it creates. My only issue with deathclock comes when I hear people talking about making lists designed to clock out an opponent as a separate win condition from anything happening on the table. That absolutely should not be possible. Why is that? There are a number of games where clock management is a valuable, although frustrating, part of the game. Even widespread games like football, basketball, soccer have elements of clock management. In these cases the objective is often to be up in the game and then run down the clock or to have a disproportionate portion of the game with the ball in your possession. While I understand that these aren't the same situation as we have in warmachine, I am just curious why you think clock management shouldn't be a valid win strategy. I'm not trying to pick a fight, I am just curious.
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Dec 11, 2017 16:29:25 GMT
I can't speak for Azuresun but I know I'm personally not a fan of playing for clock because it intentionally creates almost a non-game; I don't have to win I just have to not lose in 60 minutes. It lacks the engagement and back-and-forth of a normal game of Warmachine and just becomes a matter of putting too much X for your opponent to kill in the way and waiting. Honestly it doesn't sound very fun to play either IMO.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Dec 11, 2017 17:07:13 GMT
In friendly games, especially longer/bigger multiplayer ones, we still play with the clock (analysis paralysis is a thing! I also know players who would take forever to play out their turns given a chance...) but instead of it being a losing condition, the side who have used up their time gives up a number of Control Points to the enemy.
This way there's an incentive to play faster and the additional CPs also make the game end earlier if time runs out for one of the sides (at least they used to in older SR with a CP threshold to win)
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Post by macdaddy on Dec 11, 2017 17:12:41 GMT
Chess is also played on clock as well. Just to make sure one of the most boring games on earth isn't even more boring. Drinking chess however..... pssshhhh drinking chess is nothing. Drinking warhammer is the bomb. Every time a model dies you take a shot...I play skaven
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Post by drillbossd on Dec 11, 2017 22:37:40 GMT
Even when doing competitive prep, a lot of us in my meta will sometimes play just a single list for a while to feel out its matchups, good and back. There's not an expectation one way or the other. That said, since DnC is gone, we're free to show up to tournaments with just a single list, though that's rare.
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Post by welshhoppo on Dec 11, 2017 23:00:19 GMT
Chess is also played on clock as well. Just to make sure one of the most boring games on earth isn't even more boring. Drinking chess however..... pssshhhh drinking chess is nothing. Drinking warhammer is the bomb. Every time a model dies you take a shot...I play skaven That just sounds like a more complicated version of the game centurion.
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Dec 11, 2017 23:03:15 GMT
That said, while i love timed turns, holy christ on a candlestick do i absolutely loathe deathclock. Like with a passion hate that mechanic. Not only does it basically compel adding in another peripheral into playing warmachine (some people go absolutely apeshit on the game-aid bric-a-brac), but its the source of more (and imho, often needless) complexity into the turn infrastructure. While I know its meant to solve several issues with game turn infrastructure both at the turn and event level, I personally don't think what it solves is worth what it creates. My only issue with deathclock comes when I hear people talking about making lists designed to clock out an opponent as a separate win condition from anything happening on the table. That absolutely should not be possible. Yeah, agreed. I'll note that a big "timed turns" loophole issue was Feora 1's feat in hardcore. #1 worst way to clock chew your opponent in MK1 hardcore. In MK1 Hardcore format i always wanted to ask Feora1 players if they knew they were basically being a bag of rotten dicks by choosing her in that format (thankfully i can't recall any events i saw a Feora1 player win, but it was basically a move designed to make one turn out of the game as stressful as Firetruck for your opponent).
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