Choco
Junior Strategist
Gorten, best feet in the game.
Posts: 571
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Post by Choco on Dec 13, 2017 22:05:41 GMT
It's not on direct hit. Anyone caught in the AOE is knocked down, so you can miss, scatter and still take down your target.
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Dec 13, 2017 23:09:07 GMT
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Post by macdaddy on Dec 13, 2017 23:09:07 GMT
It's not on direct hit. Anyone caught in the AOE is knocked down, so you can miss, scatter and still take down your target. Relying on the deviation is super dicey for an assasination run. Especially on a Cost 4 Spell.
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Post by jisidro on Dec 14, 2017 10:13:32 GMT
Arc Nodes + Scourges can do wonders... He can do it two boosted to hit scourges? The problem with this is that if you're casting Scourge, you haven't allocated much of any focus. So your guns might hit, but they'll lack boosts to damage. Scourge is hideously overcosted as a spell outside of Cryx, I'd rather drop it to get a real buff spell. It doesn't really fit his character or the rest of his toolkit anyway. Literally, if PP spent another hour designing him they should have been able to come up with something interesting and effective for him. But he instead suffers from the overall lack of vision that PP has for Protectorate.
How do you mean? Protectorate has -1 cost to spell and 1 extra focus... Cryx now has (will have) 1 extra focus... Seems to be about the same...
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Dec 14, 2017 13:17:07 GMT
The problem with this is that if you're casting Scourge, you haven't allocated much of any focus. So your guns might hit, but they'll lack boosts to damage. Scourge is hideously overcosted as a spell outside of Cryx, I'd rather drop it to get a real buff spell. It doesn't really fit his character or the rest of his toolkit anyway. Literally, if PP spent another hour designing him they should have been able to come up with something interesting and effective for him. But he instead suffers from the overall lack of vision that PP has for Protectorate.
How do you mean? Protectorate has -1 cost to spell and 1 extra focus... Cryx now has (will have) 1 extra focus... Seems to be about the same...
The factions still function differently through. A key difference here is what happens when you use scourge and the run fails for any reason: cryx likely lost a dirt cheap arc node explicitly intended to be disposable, while we more commonly lose the caster in question.
Along the same lines, just last night I got a hand of vengeance sanctifier and Vilmon on top of a burning, damaged iron mother under harbinger. I don't know the exact math but it was an approximate 70%, and I scored 3 scenario to 0 on top of that. He lived, turned around, and shot harbinger a couple times and I died. If I was playing, say, cygnar....an assassination run with a solo and a warjack can happen with the caster a quarter mile off and perfectly safe.
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Post by macdaddy on Dec 14, 2017 13:40:14 GMT
Yeah I think the whole arc node thing is really why malekus struggles to get good mileage out of scourge. If he is taking a revenger it means he is not taking a jack with a fire attack to take advantage of the feat and 10 points is pretty steep for a jack that you may not even use during a game.
Anyway, I was thinking of cute combinations with durst as my gun-line drop, interestingly I am struggling between Interdiction and Faithful masses. I have reasoning for both Ill try to explain:
Faith full masses: List: Durst: -Hierophant -2 Reckoners -Castigator -Sanctifier Vilmon Max Chior (to finagle for the 2nd free model) Mechanic 2X Idrians w/UA
Specialists: Templar Rhupert 2 Mechanics Covenant Max Zealots w/ UA
Idea: -Gunline Resistance: The idrians don't really benefit from Decel outside of some of the lower pow blast damage attacks out there, but they do have built in G2G and on Feat turn I can always use Jacks to shield important models like the Tracker and Chieftan. The Jacks themselves should almost always be Def 14 Arm 21 outside of some exceptions like Hunter and Blessed weapons. Combined with Chior making them only target-able by magical ranged attacks and spells, and I think you can limit enough of the field to make the jacks super durable. The templar is for those cygnar match ups to realy take a pounding or shield guard shots to spread damage or take abilities like shadow fire. Mass spell-piercer armies are gonna be a problem, but I have not seen too many armies running a caster with Spell-piercer everywhere. -Offensive Power: This list takes a licking and hits back...really really hard. A sanctifier under HoV and Battle with 2 souls is a force to be reckoned with. Throw in Boundless charge and that sucker is really going to town on something. The idrians also hit fairly hard at ranged and even manage to do work in melee against their prey target on the charge. Even the castigator is Mat 8 Pow 20 with HoV and Battle, so I should have no really issue trading into Heavies. Ranged Infantry swarms may be problematic, but I am wondering if Thyra can handle those match ups just because of her ability to stealth a unit and deliver the army with her feat. Trenchers will hate Silence of death on errants who threat 20" assaulting on feat turn seems super legit. -Scenario Presence: With 2 large units that can AD and spread out, as well as a durable BG that can pair up to trigger Bullwark and go to different parts of the board, I think this list has a lot of solid scenario presence. I have the zealots in case I need a super cheap tarpit of dudes. I could take out a jack for that (I really would prefer not to) I think their natural recursion combined with their hilarious durability under decel (Arm 18 if one of them dies...lol) The question is what do I take out for them I am thinking one unit of idrians, but that drastically changes how the list functions and that concerns me, If anyone has another suggestion I am more than happy to replace the zealots, but I don;t know what would be a better choice. Maybe a Champion and some other solo?
Interdiction: My other option is to try Interdiction. Exemplar have OK armor add in decel and it gets into actually good levels vs ranged attacks. Blessed on the battlegroup is pretty solid as well but not nearly as Good as HoV IMO. If I do this Ill be switching Thyra to Faithful Masses, Probably running Double Idrians, and some paladins.
List: Durst: -Reckoner -Reckoner -Sanctifier Wrack Min Chior Max Errants W/ UA 3X Knights Exemplar W/UA
Spec: Reckoner Grvaus 2 Mechnaiks Rhupert Carvolo Visgoth Rhoven and Co.
Idea: -Gunline Protection: With Decel up all the knights are arm 17 or 18, and with battle driven the Knights E go up to Arm 19, The biggest concern is sprays (blast damage is almost (key being almost) irrelevant in most cases) as they can clear mutliple Knights E before battle driven comes into play, But I can potentially spread out enough to prevent that. Rhoven and Co. can provide much needed shield guards (and are durable under decel to boot!) and If I am worried about mass knockdown or stationary I can just lob in Gravus in place of one of the units of Knights E. I don't thinks its as good as the FM list but It seems like it has potential.
-Hitting Power: We all know how hard Knights exemplar hit, the Reckoners can soften up targets at range, and by the time the knights get in there most of those heavy's are gonna explode. The BG itself is also pretty handy at removing super buffed models since they all have blessed weapons! -Scenario: With the +2 Deployment, I think I can pressure the board enough to really come down on an opponent and dictate the line of engagement. Rhupert making tough errants (potentially no Knockdown with gravus) means I have a pretty durable contesting unit that can jam effectively, and with a follow up charge from Knights exemplar whatever chewed through the errants is probably gonna die. I am a little sad that I only have 3 Jacks but honestly from a scenario perspective that's all I rally need. One hangs out with Durst, and the other 2 go running off somewhere to protect menites or burn heretics, or some other such nonsense.
Summary: I feel the FM list is much better thought out, and more versatile in its application and match up strengths, but I think Exemplar with deflection has some potential. Perhaps I could run double errants instead and just fill the res of the points with a full errant support boat and a BG that can clean up shop in the late game after all the errants have exploded? I dunno. The hitting power the Knights E offer, as well as their durability with battle driven and decel has potential to me.
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Post by jisidro on Dec 14, 2017 13:41:46 GMT
Yes, some assassination runs are do or die and some are not... that said, why did Harby needed to be near the iron mother for that scenario? Did she perhaps martyr Vilmon through free strikes?
Cryx arc nodes are notoriously efficent and murderously fast but the rest is FOCUS + available caster support of which Protectorate probably has better.
As to chiken vs revenger... it's 6/7 points versus 10 and 14" run vs a 10" run. Chikens win out easy. However, it's not accurate to say that means revengers don't do anything... it's a hardy light jack that demands a lot more resources than a chicken to kill. 14" + Spell is better than 10" + Spell but both threat a lot... And put preassure into the opponent. I just think Cryx has little to no great warjacks and spends points in arc nodes easily while PoM really like the good jacks it has and so has more trouble investing in the arc node.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Dec 14, 2017 14:01:28 GMT
Yes, some assassination runs are do or die and some are not... that said, why did Harby needed to be near the iron mother for that scenario? Did she perhaps martyr Vilmon through free strikes?
Cryx arc nodes are notoriously efficent and murderously fast but the rest is FOCUS + available caster support of which Protectorate probably has better.
As to chiken vs revenger... it's 6/7 points versus 10 and 14" run vs a 10" run. Chikens win out easy. However, it's not accurate to say that means revengers don't do anything... it's a hardy light jack that demands a lot more resources than a chicken to kill. 14" + Spell is better than 10" + Spell but both threat a lot... And put preassure into the opponent. I just think Cryx has little to no great warjacks and spends points in arc nodes easily while PoM really like the good jacks it has and so has more trouble investing in the arc node. I had to cataclysm some chaff out of the way. It was a weird match, with 6 small, circular pieces of terrain that wouldn't block ground pounders at all forcing my huge army into a tight corridor or going wide and giving them an extra turn of shooting: 2 losing propositions. If I didn't go then, I wouldn't have had the pieces to try later. Vilmon's damage, a deliverer pow 15 blast, and the sanctifier's attack rolls were all under par though, with vilmon only accomplishing scratch damage, the deliverers not doing anything at all, and the sanctifier only hitting the first attack.
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Post by macdaddy on Dec 14, 2017 14:06:01 GMT
Yes, some assassination runs are do or die and some are not... that said, why did Harby needed to be near the iron mother for that scenario? Did she perhaps martyr Vilmon through free strikes?
Cryx arc nodes are notoriously efficent and murderously fast but the rest is FOCUS + available caster support of which Protectorate probably has better.
As to chiken vs revenger... it's 6/7 points versus 10 and 14" run vs a 10" run. Chikens win out easy. However, it's not accurate to say that means revengers don't do anything... it's a hardy light jack that demands a lot more resources than a chicken to kill. 14" + Spell is better than 10" + Spell but both threat a lot... And put preassure into the opponent. I just think Cryx has little to no great warjacks and spends points in arc nodes easily while PoM really like the good jacks it has and so has more trouble investing in the arc node. This whole thing about "cryx warjacks are bad" needs to stop. Its been too long in MK3 for cryx players to be complaing about their jacks. Get some games in with Dark industries and stop saying cryx jacks are bad. They have above average def, high mat, and good speed, in exchange for durability. They are literally the warpwolves of warmachine, but costed appropriately (and with an really solid mat stat) Sure they are not the best jacks in the game, but they are good in the faction they are in. As for the whole revneger thing, yes it is a good, durable jack that is also an arc node. But malekus does little to support it or gain from it. He realy only needs it to arc scourge and the rest of the time it just kind of sits around and does light jack things while the rest of the list is really trying to shoot. You can't throw him away early as a contesting piece because you need to save him to do what you took him for (arc scourge) you can't send him in on a enemy light or heavy because you lose the ability to pressure your opponent with...the spell you took the revenger for. Cryx arc nodes are literally just designed to be arc nodes and are cheaper because of that. The revenegr is designed with more than just the arc node role in mind, which is fine overall, but with malekus it causes issues. Your arguably better off just buying a revenegr instead which is another Pow 14 weaponmaster attack on feat turn.
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Post by jisidro on Dec 14, 2017 14:56:53 GMT
I said great and meant great. I don't think they are garbage but outside huge theme benefits you tend not to see them in lists... PoM tends (tended perhaps?)to like a heavier BG because it has great support and jacks that don't need super theme bonuses to carry their weight around.
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Post by macdaddy on Dec 14, 2017 16:21:10 GMT
I said great and meant great. I don't think they are garbage but outside huge theme benefits you tend not to see them in lists... PoM tends (tended perhaps?)to like a heavier BG because it has great support and jacks that don't need super theme bonuses to carry their weight around. cryx does have great options in heavies and both collossals are also good. Every single character jack is great, seethers are great, reapers are great for their cost, Slayers are a great 10 point chaff heavy, and the inflictor is great at its job.... They are not seen in many other themes because those themes are mostly all about infantry particularly Dark host, GF, and The new Satyxis theme. Cryx were waiting for a jack theme and they got one, just like PoM was waiting for more infantry themes and we got them and now you see a lot of combined arms lists where before it was basically Creators Might all the time. We are getting horribly off topic though and I don't want the mods to silence this thread so maybe we should just agree to disagree or start a new thread somewhere else.
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Post by greytemplar on Dec 14, 2017 17:49:01 GMT
The problem with this is that if you're casting Scourge, you haven't allocated much of any focus. So your guns might hit, but they'll lack boosts to damage. Scourge is hideously overcosted as a spell outside of Cryx, I'd rather drop it to get a real buff spell. It doesn't really fit his character or the rest of his toolkit anyway. Literally, if PP spent another hour designing him they should have been able to come up with something interesting and effective for him. But he instead suffers from the overall lack of vision that PP has for Protectorate. I agree that scourge is a really expensive spell, especially outside factions without good arc nodes and high focus. However, I'm confused, jacks get 1 focus powering up. They are shooting the scourge target correct? Since scourge knocks down, couldn't they just use their power up focus to boost damage? Yes, he is knocked down. Assuming he isnt steady or something. But the bigger issue is that with Malakus you want as many fire guns as you can squeeze in the list. And point for point, the revelator is the most shots per point in the faction. So that is only one free focus from powerup. And you are still wasting points on an arc node to get it out there. In theory, Malakus has good tools. But he fails to actuslly perform because no thought was given to how it all works together. Its like he was designed, but the hard cap of how much focus he has was forgotten. Its like they assumed he could always do all of his grab bag of tricks every turn, when really he can only do 1/3 of it. So he is a caster who is less than the sum of his parts.
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Post by chillychinaman on Dec 14, 2017 18:13:42 GMT
I agree that scourge is a really expensive spell, especially outside factions without good arc nodes and high focus. However, I'm confused, jacks get 1 focus powering up. They are shooting the scourge target correct? Since scourge knocks down, couldn't they just use their power up focus to boost damage? Yes, he is knocked down. Assuming he isnt steady or something. But the bigger issue is that with Malakus you want as many fire guns as you can squeeze in the list. And point for point, the revelator is the most shots per point in the faction. So that is only one free focus from powerup. And you are still wasting points on an arc node to get it out there. Fair points, however I will say that, in addition to losing out on power-up focus, the Revelator also has the trade-off of weird POW/RNG combinations for its guns, that a pair of Reckoners doesn't have, in addition to the flare for steady targets. After a quick check on buyorboost, while there is about a 50% increase in output on feat turn due to volume of attacks, on regular turns there is only a marginal increase appropriate for its increased cost. Granted Malakus' main draw is his feat. As a funny side note, it would seem that, if you can fit them all in, 4 Repenters under feat can put out more damage than a Revelator, assuming KD and Choir.
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