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Post by sovereigngrax on Dec 3, 2017 19:35:48 GMT
Has there ever been an official statement about approximately what the conversion is from game time to real time? I feel like it's not that long really. 10-20 minutes maybe?
What are your thoughts?
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396 
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Post by Haight on Dec 3, 2017 19:42:57 GMT
Not 100% sure what you mean ... do you mean like the length of "real time" in abstraction that a typical game takes in terms of how much "real time" in the IK world the battle that the game presents as an abstraction takes ?
If i'm on the right track there... good question. I've been playing since just before the second book release of Mark 1, and i do not recall this topic ever coming up.
I would think about 10-30 minutes for all but the largest games is accurate. While there are exceptions, battles prior to World War 1 tended to be short and relatively (compared to the 20th century) less bloody affairs. IK occupies this weird straddling of pre and post WWI level technology. The game abstracts a skirmish, which can be abstracted as part of a larger overall battle (like in the fluff, there are examples of much closer examples to a WWI type battle of Isonzo, Ypres, The Somme, Verdun, etc) or just a one off engagement.
So i guess it sorta depends?
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Post by sovereigngrax on Dec 3, 2017 20:19:45 GMT
You got it. I'm wondering what the real time length of a typically battle is that we participate in abstraction on the tabletop. It's not that surprising to me if there is no official word for this. I'm sure it's a range. Your speculation seems to coincide with mine.
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Post by greytemplar on Dec 4, 2017 2:31:32 GMT
Maybe a couple minutes. Relative to the size of the miniatures, a single activation could only be a few seconds of actual time.
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Post by borderprince on Dec 4, 2017 6:41:27 GMT
Maybe a couple minutes. Relative to the size of the miniatures, a single activation could only be a few seconds of actual time. If vertical and horizontal scales are the same (I think that is a big "if", but assuming they are), and depending what you mean by a 'few' (around 3?): A 6" move is going to be about 36 feet (or about 11 metres for those of us who use sensible units). People clearly can cover that distance in a few seconds, but running doubles that - 22 metres in a few seconds? That's only possibly achievable by the best sprinters, and they aren't wearing armour or carrying equipment. Or paying any attention to not being shot. 11 metres in a few second and also shoot fairly accurately? A few seconds seems too short. Let alone loading and firing any muzzle loaded artillery (there still is some in the game) - a few seconds would be a record, I think. |
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juckto
Junior Strategist
Posts: 124
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Post by juckto on Dec 4, 2017 7:19:28 GMT
The first war games were based on a 30s "real time turn". Distance moved, number of arrows fired, etc, were based on that.
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Post by greytemplar on Dec 4, 2017 20:07:33 GMT
Maybe a couple minutes. Relative to the size of the miniatures, a single activation could only be a few seconds of actual time. If vertical and horizontal scales are the same (I think that is a big "if", but assuming they are), and depending what you mean by a 'few' (around 3?): A 6" move is going to be about 36 feet (or about 11 metres for those of us who use sensible units). People clearly can cover that distance in a few seconds, but running doubles that - 22 metres in a few seconds? That's only possibly achievable by the best sprinters, and they aren't wearing armour or carrying equipment. Or paying any attention to not being shot. 11 metres in a few second and also shoot fairly accurately? A few seconds seems too short. Let alone loading and firing any muzzle loaded artillery (there still is some in the game) - a few seconds would be a record, I think. The time it takes a trained person to reload a muzzle loader is often way exaggerated. youtu.be/SJMbxZ1k9NQHere is a guy who fires off 3 shots in 46 seconds with a brown bess. The standard was one shot every 20 seconds, so he is a little faster than the standard, but it doesn't take that long to reload. Plus many of the ranged weapons in the iron kingdoms have crude magazines. Exemplar Crossbows have revolving magazines, Longgunners use revolving magazines... The ubiquitous Military Rifle is a bolt action weapon. The Iron Kingdoms is at least up to cartridge levels of technology which severely cuts down on reload time. And many weapons even have metal cartridges and feed systems. Even a cannon doesn't take a long time to reload when you have prepackaged and weighed Powder and a crew who know what they are doing. You just slam the cartridge down, roll the ball, tamp it down, and fire. Aiming could take longer than actually loading the cannon. And of course this game doesn't have any real big cannons other than the commodore. |
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Post by galrohir on Dec 5, 2017 18:14:06 GMT
If vertical and horizontal scales are the same (I think that is a big "if", but assuming they are), and depending what you mean by a 'few' (around 3?): A 6" move is going to be about 36 feet (or about 11 metres for those of us who use sensible units). People clearly can cover that distance in a few seconds, but running doubles that - 22 metres in a few seconds? That's only possibly achievable by the best sprinters, and they aren't wearing armour or carrying equipment. Or paying any attention to not being shot. 11 metres in a few second and also shoot fairly accurately? A few seconds seems too short. Let alone loading and firing any muzzle loaded artillery (there still is some in the game) - a few seconds would be a record, I think. The time it takes a trained person to reload a muzzle loader is often way exaggerated. youtu.be/SJMbxZ1k9NQHere is a guy who fires off 3 shots in 46 seconds with a brown bess. The standard was one shot every 20 seconds, so he is a little faster than the standard, but it doesn't take that long to reload. Plus many of the ranged weapons in the iron kingdoms have crude magazines. Exemplar Crossbows have revolving magazines, Longgunners use revolving magazines... The ubiquitous Military Rifle is a bolt action weapon. The Iron Kingdoms is at least up to cartridge levels of technology which severely cuts down on reload time. And many weapons even have metal cartridges and feed systems. Even a cannon doesn't take a long time to reload when you have prepackaged and weighed Powder and a crew who know what they are doing. You just slam the cartridge down, roll the ball, tamp it down, and fire. Aiming could take longer than actually loading the cannon. And of course this game doesn't have any real big cannons other than the commodore. Military Rifles aren't bolt action, they're single shot break action guns . However, your point still stands that it's way faster than even your brown bess example. And yeah, as far as I can tell, even muzzle loading artillery uses "cartridges" of some sort (you can see examples in the Winter Guard Mortar Crew and the Horgengold Artillery Corps). I guess Pirate Cannons could be an exception, but considering how Ogrun Assault Corp cannons work I wouldnt count on it. OT: I'm pretty sure there's no hard data anywhere but considering the numbers involved, probably around half an hour, maybe less. These are basically skirmishes, after all, not full blown battles. |
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Post by plungingforward on Dec 6, 2017 0:07:09 GMT
Don't have time to look up the benchmarks for average running humans or run the numbers at the moment, but if 2" is roughly 6', A running model with speed 6 covers 36 feet in a turn. You might be able to start extrapolating from that - but, then, it might also get weird, like gun ranges in the IK. Might be safest to leave it abstract...
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Post by greytemplar on Dec 6, 2017 2:21:36 GMT
Gun ranges are stated to be abstracted. Though iron kingdoms guns do have worse ranges than real guns due to blasting powder being less powerful than gunpowder. Which is why crossbows and bows are still practical weapons in the setting. They aren't yet totally outclassed.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
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Post by Provengreil on Dec 6, 2017 4:51:45 GMT
Gun ranges are stated to be abstracted. Though iron kingdoms guns do have worse ranges than real guns due to blasting powder being less powerful than gunpowder. Which is why crossbows and bows are still practical weapons in the setting. They aren't yet totally outclassed. It should also be noted that older guns were a great deal less accurate, so even if a bullet could go the distance it becomes a general waste of munitions to shoot it beyond certain ranges.
What really screws with my mental image of the "realism" more than the time is the turn by turn nature of the game. When a whole force can perform complex, precise maneuvers on a tactical scale based on the opposing force's current position, those maneuvers should be shot to heck by the halfway point. Same with buying attacks: a troll can wail on a crusader for 7 attacks and it just kinda sits there?
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Post by Gamingdevil on Dec 6, 2017 8:17:14 GMT
Don't have time to look up the benchmarks for average running humans or run the numbers at the moment, but if 2" is roughly 6', A running model with speed 6 covers 36 feet in a turn. You might be able to start extrapolating from that - but, then, it might also get weird, like gun ranges in the IK. Might be safest to leave it abstract... In the RPG, 1" is 6', but that doesn't make any sense if you take width or height of characters into account. Any kind of distances in Warmachine are a mess and can't be taken out of their abstraction, that way lies madness. |
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Post by killroundears on Dec 6, 2017 8:53:59 GMT
it would be a couple minutes only. the slowest games may be worth about 10 minutes. But when say, a skorne swordsman makes a charge over open ground and slashes someone and side steps forward and kills another, that action would not take very long at all.
Neither would say, a khador juggernaut slamming into something and hitting it 3-4 times with its ice axe
the skirmishes are exceptionally violent though to the point where if they were the norm i imagine not many people would be looking to sign up as soldiers. But since they are clashes between some of the most powerful figures in the fluff (the casters and warlocks, and also many of the solos and some character UAs) the fact both sides can be massacred in every short order due to the casters magic it makes sense
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Post by greytemplar on Dec 6, 2017 17:12:43 GMT
Gun ranges are stated to be abstracted. Though iron kingdoms guns do have worse ranges than real guns due to blasting powder being less powerful than gunpowder. Which is why crossbows and bows are still practical weapons in the setting. They aren't yet totally outclassed. It should also be noted that older guns were a great deal less accurate, so even if a bullet could go the distance it becomes a general waste of munitions to shoot it beyond certain ranges.
What really screws with my mental image of the "realism" more than the time is the turn by turn nature of the game. When a whole force can perform complex, precise maneuvers on a tactical scale based on the opposing force's current position, those maneuvers should be shot to heck by the halfway point. Same with buying attacks: a troll can wail on a crusader for 7 attacks and it just kinda sits there?
Well that is where the abstraction comes in. |
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