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Post by greenjello on Dec 4, 2017 17:39:25 GMT
I hear complaints about how good the Earthborn is more than any beast we have. I’m so confused right now. Lol From whom? Let's take a look. EBDT Alpha Beast Mk I - Stats are identical, 11 DEF, instead of 12, 11 Threshold, instead of 10. Had the ability to use other model's ARM instead of it's own (Metamorphose). Had the ability to use another model's POW within 1" (Adaption). 125 points EBDT mkII - +1 DEF, -1 Threshold, loses Metamorphose, Adaption. Elemental Communion increased to 2". 10 points which is roughly the same as 125 pts. EBDT mkIII - Loses Transmute, which gives any friendly faction model Elemental Communion, replaced with Earth's Blessing, which is far more limited. Goes from Fury 5 to Fury 4. Drops to 14 points, from roughly 20 points. So the EBDT has been objectively losing abilities edition after edition. In MK I it was able to overcome it's relative pillow fisted claw attacks via Adaptation. Going into Warmachine it was rare to attack an opposing heavy that didn't bump him to P+S18 or better. In MKII having a buffer like the Slag/Pyre addressed P+S16. In MKIII your buffing option is pretty much Mauler, since Primal is usually a bad idea on Heavies. He did get a price drop, but since you want to take a Mauler, while you used to be able to take the Pyre, it almost feels like he went sideways cost wise when it comes to list building. He also got a price drop in part because he went from Fury 5 to Fury 4, which feels like an attempt to buff the Garguantuans by cutting down all opposition. It's disappointing because +1 Fury on select beasts was a good balance to not having access to fury management as good as other factions. We do now have a theme list that has soothing song, so that's an improvement. Personally I would have liked to have seen him get an POW bump and keep the same points cost. That would have given us another heavy that can stand on it's own without taking a mauler. All of which really feels like joedj is correct and we're going to get a unit or solo that gives out +2 STR to warbeasts, like the Skorne paingivers currently do.
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mattmcd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 521
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Post by mattmcd on Dec 4, 2017 17:50:25 GMT
If I have an Earthborn in a list I have a plan for it to hit hard (Rage, Horgle 2, Ragnor etc). Considering that, it’s then a beast who out threats most others (+2 speed is extremely easy to get) or is a real puzzle in the trade game (+2 Arm in stone, +2 Arm near obstacles and/or +2 def near a lake).
Doomy 2 and Earthborns is EXTREMELY frustrating to play against. I LOVE the question, “how far can your Earthborn threat?” Well let’s see... base speed 5, +2 near the forest, +2 with rush, +3 from the feat, +3 charging (or even trampling) and 1” melee. So 16” melee threat. Range 10 units are pretty ticked about that.
Note: our best list pre-cid was Doomy 2 with duel Earthborns.
Also: the animus can be game saving against lists that control movement or knockdown assassinate. They are valuable in every single game.
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Post by greenjello on Dec 4, 2017 18:07:54 GMT
I don't think the two view points are necessarily exclusive. I'm not saying he's dreadful, or unplayable.
However, I just wish he was better, at a higher cost. And while the animus is useful, I think it's less useful than his previous animus, which was unique, and limited to SELF, while the previous version was friendly Faction. If you need the new one, it's already available on the Bouncer. I also don't see how the new animus is better at caster defense than +2 ARM or +2 DEF. Or the offense of +2 SPD for some of our more aggressive casters.
So if you think being able to play range games is fun with one model, isn't being able to do it with multiple models ever better? If you think the range game is fun, isn't it even more fun when he can beat the enemy to death with their own arm when he gets there? He feels less and less like a pseudo Character beast, and more like just another beast. It's a thematic shift I'm not happy about.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Dec 4, 2017 19:43:26 GMT
High minimum tax is still the problem of Trollbloods, and everyone can access for Trollbloods' stat lists can aware of it.
In fact, many factions requires you to bring some sort of universal in faction supports to play the faction - or play it efficiently. Such as juniors, Choirs, stones(both troll and Circle), and Handlers. So, require the tax itself is not a strange idea. But see the amount of supports Trollbloods need for;
-6pt for a Krielstone Bearer&Stone Scribes minimum unit -15pt for a Dire Troll Mauler. --or 19pt for Rok. --or 16+3pt for a Dire Troll Brawler and a Stone Scribe Elder. --or 22pt for Mulg the Ancient --or 35pt for a Glacier King --or 36pt for either a Mountain King or a Sea King.
Yes, total 21 points would be needed for the minimum investment, in the game that has around 103 points on the standard list.
Mauler part is also bind to the beatstick in melee, and indeed most factions are only have a short numbers of choices... but anyway, in Trollbloods there is no other non-character, non-gargantuan warbeast can access for P+S 18 without aid. Brawler can do with a cheap support, though.
The problem is variety. Dire Trolls are designed to be have the damage buff by the animus to do something in melee. And the only non-gargantuan source for this is Dire Troll Mauler(or Rok if you want to expend the beast and want to spend more points). I do think that Mauler is good, indeed, for he is a powerful supporter as well as a devastate beatstick as well. But, for now he is the only reasonable options to make the other Dire Trolls do something in melee(you don't want a Mountain King just for his Rage, do you?). Also he is the primary beatstic option as well. Even if you don't consider the past, it is still a problem, whatever Trollbloods is good now or not.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Dec 4, 2017 20:36:41 GMT
This is a very slight variation on Mark's Doomy 2 list. conflictchamber.com/#c7201b_-0b539D9DiRiRjp0hjq7d6R0l0mTrollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Power of Dhunia (Doomshaper 2) Hoarluk Doomshaper, Rage of Dhunia [+27] - Dire Troll Mauler [15] - Dire Troll Mauler [15] - Earthborn Dire Troll [14] - Earthborn Dire Troll [14] - Mulg the Ancient [22] - Troll Axer [10] - Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)] Janissa Stonetide [0(4)] Troll Whelps [0(4)] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9] - Stone Scribe Elder [3] This is one of the best battlegroup lists in the game. I've played it myself, and I can vouch for the simple solution of doubling up on both the Mauler and Earthborn. Opponents can often have difficulty killing both Maulers quickly enough to swing the game, and it makes sense to have redundancy with something so important to the list. Few melee lists have greater threat ranges, and with Overtake as a field marshal, you can sometimes pull off some surprising assassination runs. And the Earthborn keys into all of that. His abilities make him excellent at holding a choke point and his point cost is just low enough to make piece trades a little less painful. He can be very resilient, with frequent DEF and/or ARM bonuses, a few extra hit points, and immunity to all the elemental damage types. The whole reason that people were so hung up about the Earthborn was that it changed roles. It was an expensive assassin. It is now a cheap tank. Also, there is much to be said for simply having native pathfinder on a heavy, especially when that usually relieves the need to put Rush on him and thus frees him up to take Rage instead. There are many cases when the EBDT can get there swinging at PS 18 while with the Mauler it would have been 16 if he could get there at all. And the Axer is more important than many players realize, especially when you're building for threat ranges and there is so much terrain on the tables now.
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Post by Trollock on Dec 5, 2017 7:38:36 GMT
greenjelloDo you actually have trouble cracking ARM with your beasts? If beasts are the way you plan to crack ARM, then yes, you do need Rage, but once you have it, things just melt when you touch them. It seems to me that your complains come more from theorycrafting than from actual experience on the table. The EBDT is very pillowfisted on its own. In reality though you buff it to POW 19 and then it one rounds a khador heavy. Yes yeas you brought a lot of "support" in the form of the Mauler and the kriel stone, but you know what also one rounds a khador heavy? that Mauler... I to was REALLY down on the EBDT in the transition. It lost "everything" that made it good, right? The thing though is that now there is enough terrain that getting +2 SPD is basically automatic, and getting +2 ARM is a very realistic possibility, even without good old Janissa. The immunities are significant surprisingly often too. Unbuffed, it doesnt one round a Juggernaught. But you know what else doesnt one round a Juggernaught? A Juggernaught! Across the board, heavies do not punch as hard as they used to, but we still have some of the hardest punching ones out there. Cracking ARM was the big scary problem at the start of MK3. "everyone" was playing jack spam (15 Mad dogs was possible back there...). I for one developed a Grissel 2 list to fight that shit. With her, double bomber and a MK, i played a game where i killed 9 mad dogs before losing a single model. Our heavies are incredible at fighting other heavies, and they are significantly harder to kill as well. DEF 12 is not great, but it also means you miss every once in a while. and ARM 20 base line with 30 boxes is really high, especially since if you survive on 1 box, you will still murder what ever tried to kill you. ARM spam is still around, but it is not really the biggest problem. Build one of your lists to handle it, and you will do fine. The Doomy 2 list that bigfattroll posted there will stomp all over most jack spam lists, and remember that scenario is a real thing nowadays. Please please PLEASE do yourself the favor of playing the game a couple of months before you jump to conclusions that trolls are awful. We who stuck with it think they are fine. Sure, cryx is better, but the difference between cryx and trolls now is WAY smaller than in MK2. My record the last 6 months is 72-20. The faction is fine. We even have a lot of fine options nowadays. ALL of our casters are tournament worthy, and ALL of our themes are as well. There are a few models that i do not think have a place in a tournament list, but that is basically only scouts, the skinner, Runehspers and Blitzer and POSSIBLY burrowers. Every single other model has at least one tournament worthy list is is "the right choice" in, and i may very well be wrong about those exceptions as well. So, please look around here for some inspiration for lists. Play some games, and be ready to get stomped for a couple of months while you adjust to the new game and new steamroller. ppl on this forum will be happy to discuss how you can improve your game play and lists. You will get back to the groove after a while though. We are not the exact same faction as we used to be, but every faction has changed. Embrace the change and enjoy the game!
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Post by greenjello on Dec 5, 2017 15:12:46 GMT
greenjello If beasts are the way you plan to crack ARM, then yes, you do need Rage, but once you have it, things just melt when you touch them. Then you, I, and droopypuppy, ARE in agreement, despite your earlier statement. You need to take the Mauler or Rok, and there isn't an obscure combo (say with a merc or something) that gets around that requirement. This bothers me because I like armies with lots and lots and lots of options. I'm the sort of guy who's looking to make up his own lists, try something new, and maybe untested, rather than using a really good list that somebody else discovered even if it's objectively better. I usually make a different list each time I play. As such I really like options, as long as they're decent. Fewer decent options is not as good, and that's what the changes to the Pyre/Slag mean to me. If PP tomorrow made a mistake that resulted in a list that always won, but required that I play the same boring stuff in the same order every time I'd quit. I think you're projecting a bit too much here. I'm not saying it lost everything, or that it's bad, if you read above you'll see I state that very clearly. Going to that extreme makes the discussion into a very different strawman. It's a very easy mindset to get into since almost all the people who post complaints are very focused on power level, and how that relates to other factions. Most whining really comes down to wanting something OP. I'm trying not to do that, it's a subtle difference I know. Simply put, I'm not happy with the direction taken with the EBDT. I'd rather pay a premium, and get a premium beast. This is more a question of theme, rather than power level. I've read enough of what you've posted to understand you don't really care (or it appears) think much about theme. I want to eat the promised steak, at a steak price, however PP is delivering hamburgers at a hamburger price. As originally designed the Alpha warbeasts (and warjacks of Renoun) were steak, now they're hamburger. There is nothing wrong with hamburger at a hamburger price from a game balance perspective, as you've pointed out. However if you go into Texas Roadhouse and order the steak, and they deliver the hamburger, you might go WTF? You also might ask, "what prompted the change in my order?" You'd probably listen as the waiter explained that they had run out of steak, or that the smell of steak was offensive to the other customers. You also might point out as a steak house that they should have planned for people to order the steak. I realize this is a fluff argument, rather than a power level argument, but the fluff matters to everybody. Otherwise we might as well be playing an abstract game where we push around markers rather than models. Please please PLEASE do yourself the favor of playing the game a couple of months before you jump to conclusions that trolls are awful. Please point to the part of the thread where I stated "Trolls are awful"? Rather I've clearly stated the opposite a few times. Rather, I disagree with some of the decisions made. Not because they necessarily make the game, or the faction, unplayable, but usually because they make it worse AND don't appear to fix anything. I'm hoping somebody has an answer, preferably from the devs as to what they were attempting to fix. Some problems are just obvious, like Janissa's wall. Others not so much. How am I jumping to conclusions? Rather I'm asking questions of people who do have the experience. People like yourself, who I respect, and who do appear to have some answers. If I disagree with some of the responses I try to give a clear reason for my rationale. Backing up opinions with rationale is the opposite of jumping to conclusions. Further I've been mulling this over since the transition, so this isn't a sudden thing for me. So far I've actually found this thread has produced some answers. I've learned that most lights animi had gone SELF. It also appears that PP wanted to make jacks more viable, so reducing the ability to one round them, and the huge based models was a design goal (if I understand your comment about everybody struggling with jack spam). Thus the reduction of our ability to buff warbeasts. Seems nobody knows why Madrak1's feat changed, or the Kriel Warriors lost their prayers. That's fine. Further by paying attention to the developer's design goals I can avoid spending time and energy in areas that are going to get cut or nerfed. Like I didn't get excited about the troll Elemental theme in mkII because it was pretty obviously OP, and I was not surprised when people playing it got stuck with a lot of extra elemental trolls. Same with Bradigus and all those wolds. Which is part of the reason I'm not happy about the changes to Kriel Warriors, since I own three full metal units I was planning on finishing at some point. It's a pretty substantial investment of time and money into a unit that I don't believe is OP, never heard was OP, and wasn't generating complaints like say Bane Thralls. So I find myself less interested in doing things like that when things apparently change on the whim of the developers.
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Post by Trollock on Dec 5, 2017 15:29:11 GMT
greenjelloSorry man. I did not really intend for this to turn in to one of those "discussions on the internet"-thing. I recognize the frustration i see in your posts, because i was there too. I just wanted to help you look past that and check out what the game is NOW. Forget about what it used to be, and look at what you can do now. Some things have changed, but change is not inherently bad. Try and focus on what interesting things you can do now instead of the things you cant do anymore. The game is still deep and fun and interesting. Try to enjoy it!
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mattmcd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 521
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Post by mattmcd on Dec 5, 2017 15:32:08 GMT
What you seem to miss in this is that you’re not simply asking why things changed. And you’re not just talking about differences between the fluff and the stats. You complained about what the Earthborn was on the table. You spoke about it’s pow and it’s animus. When I said opponents complained about it being too strong you questioned who.
In a way you’re saying that you’re not saying what you’ve just finished saying.
If you’re actually correcting yourself and saying, “you know what, I have not represented my feelings and thoughts well thus far,” then that’s fair. But you only seem to be pointing and saying, “look I have been right all along.”
There are options to create new lists... tons and tons of them as a matter of fact. I’ve personally listed several casters, themes and unit options in this thread that will allow you to literally play thousands of potential lists without including a Mauler that can crack armor.
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mattmcd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 521
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Post by mattmcd on Dec 5, 2017 15:46:58 GMT
conflictchamber.com/#c7201b_-0a4X0r0j6G6G0o0o0o0l0miTcBTrollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Band of Heroes (Madrak 2) Madrak Ironhide, World Ender [+28] - Dire Troll Bomber [19] - Troll Bouncer [9] Fell Caller Hero [0(5)] Fell Caller Hero [0(5)] Kriel Warriors (max) [11] Kriel Warriors (max) [11] Kriel Warriors (max) [11] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9] - Stone Scribe Elder [0(3)] Trollkin Champions (max) [16] Trollkin Warders (max) [17]
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Post by adakai on Dec 5, 2017 15:51:46 GMT
greenjello I think you just gotta start playing the trolls. I think you'll find that they aren't in a bad place at all right now. Mk3 changed a lot of how the game in general was played and I think you'll find that MK2 strategies wont work. But there is enough that trolls have in their toolkit to really make some great lists. Just start getting some reps out there - you'll see =]
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Post by greenjello on Dec 5, 2017 15:56:15 GMT
If you’re actually correcting yourself and saying, “you know what, I have not represented my feelings and thoughts well thus far,” then that’s fair. But you only seem to be pointing and saying, “look I have been right all along.” Not entirely. I thought you were looking for a discussion about why I felt the EBDT had been getting worse and worse over time. So I provided what I believe is a pretty clear progression of the degradation of his abilities. Doesn't necessarily mean he's terrible. Hamburger is great! Like I said, I think we're talking past each other a bit. My original suggestion on the EBDT was that it would appear to address two concerns I have: our beasts are too pillow fisted, AND the EBDT is losing abilities as time goes on. Trollock FWIW, I have been enjoying the game in a way I haven't for a long time. I basically dropped out during mkII because I was bored and wanted something else. For people who are in a similar state, I find that Infinity is a wonderful change, it's essentially everything that warmachine is not. I've been reading a lot of your articles and going back to them as I play with the various casters again, it's been a big help. Personally I find discussing game design an interesting topic in and of itself, so part of my enjoyment of Warmachine comes from discussing it's design. I think there were a LOT of changes in mkIII for the better. I'm happy you can no longer change your own models in the back to get up field quicker. It's purely a fluff thing, but having "good guy" Madrak1 charge some lowly Kriel warrior so that he could get an extra 3" always bothered me. I think the change to Far Strike was really cool, and it's great the Bomber now has a usable animus. I've been enjoying the CID process, what I've seen of it. I think it's wonderful that PP is engaging their fans in a way that's pretty much unprecedented, save for their own experiment mkI->mkII. I feel it fixes what had amounted to a number of niggling issues that started to pile up in mkII with things that had changed once during the mkI->mkII change, and never addressed again. I'm very happy about the level of insight it gives us into their thinking, and pleased that they're at least willing to consider fan input. I think Grissel2's new gun is amazingly OP, and I'm awaiting a potential nerf on that, though some of the comparisons in the other thread make it seem less likely. I'm super pleased that Champs got Sanguinary Bond, as somebody who loved them in mkII when it seemed the zeitergeist had turned against them. I am awaiting some sort of nerf to including all the sorcerers with them. Swamp Troll has been an amazing performer for me in mkIII. Often times it pulls something, usually a caster, into the mosh pit, where it's destroyed by the rest of the army.
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Post by sundaytaco on Dec 5, 2017 16:13:21 GMT
greenjello I can tell you why krielwarriors were changed in mk3. Apparently "no body knows" means you haven't looked very hard. They had an overlappinng role with fen blades. Fens became our shock troops (9/15 points, huge threat most likely alpha), and kriel warriors became a footprint (7/11 slower CMA and unyielding). Both units take buff really well but have distinct roles. In MK2 this idea was not in effect where there was often a "best unit/beast" to take. PP has, with the inclusion of themes, attempted to make all units equally viable for different roles. It's not fair that you are comparing things to eachother within the faction, because they are simply different things! I'm wondering what the point of this thread is at this point. Do you want help with list building? Do you just want your grievances to be heard? Do you want people to agree with you? There's a thread I think you should look at by Trollock that is called the "Five game challenge" or something. It's a really good read and a good way to get a feel for what different models end up doing vs. what you THINK they should be doing each game. It helps to push mastery instead of competence with certain lists. It does stink that the EBDT is waning in what you THINK it should do, but in PP's eyes, most likely, the EBDT outshined other beasts in utiility and power and needed a separate role that was independant of our other heavies. I was a circle player in MK2 so I only know the new trolls, so take these opionions on TROLLS with a grain of salt.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Dec 5, 2017 16:21:32 GMT
greenjello Please please PLEASE do yourself the favor of playing the game a couple of months before you jump to conclusions that trolls are awful. We who stuck with it think they are fine. Sure, cryx is better, but the difference between cryx and trolls now is WAY smaller than in MK2. My record the last 6 months is 72-20. The faction is fine. We even have a lot of fine options nowadays. ALL of our casters are tournament worthy, and ALL of our themes are as well. There are a few models that i do not think have a place in a tournament list, but that is basically only scouts, the skinner, Runehspers and Blitzer and POSSIBLY burrowers. Every single other model has at least one tournament worthy list is is "the right choice" in, and i may very well be wrong about those exceptions as well. Trollock , don't sleep on the Skinner. As a scenario piece in certain Band of Heroes lists it's pretty legit.
I say that but I do think it still needs a buff, but definitely not unplayable in a tournament list,.
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Post by ninjapete on Dec 5, 2017 16:25:18 GMT
Madrak1 and Madrak2 swapped feats in Mark 3 for fluff reasons. PP stated as much. They felt that thematically Madrak2 seemed more likely to have a feat that would let a few models berserk their way through an enemy army while Madrak1 would still be a bit more restrained. Then they nerfed Madrak2’s feat a bit because on him it was a bit overpowered when combined with his spell list and rules. Madrak1 ended up being underpowered due to the changes of Surefoot, the loss of Carnage, and not having Blood Fury to crank the damage on the feat attacks. So they reworked him in CID to be more defensive-oriented.
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