|
Post by greenjello on Dec 2, 2017 2:26:10 GMT
So maybe this is old news for regular forum hounds, but I've been taking a fairly long break starting around 3 years ago, before the edition change. I paid a bit of attention, and feel like I knew where the OP stuff was in Trolls, not that it seemed like there was a lot. I also understand that some things needed to change to open up the design space. However, I have a laundry list of changes that don't make sense to me. I'm hoping that somebody can fill me in, or at least has a theory, since this is mostly WTF. Also if I'm missing other baffling changes, feel free to add.
1) Far Strike is now SELF only. So for a long time Troll beasts and units had their range cut down severly, and usually the rationale was thought to be Far Strike. (Since we have only 1 warlock with Snipe). Now we'd had an edition change, and we're still getting units, like the Northkin Raiders who have RNG8. For that matter the Highwaymen also have RNG8, and the Slag Troll also at RNG8. Why haven't some of these ranges been increased with the change to Far Strike.
2) Pyre/Slag Troll Animus. So it used to be you'd bring these beasts to buff damage on our mostly pillow fisted beasts. Now you're limited to Rok and the Mauler (and I guess the Mountain King), and you pretty much have to bring them in every list if you want to have beasts that can crack armor. It also makes Horgle1 far less useful. So it seems to be a change to something that I never heard a complaint about, that reduces the usefulness of a few models, and makes list building more restricted, rather than less. Further they reduced the Fury on some beasts, and none of them got an increase in their P+S. WTF?
3) Madrak1 loses his feat. So I used to play Madrak1 quite a bit in MKII. He had an interesting make it or break it feat. Basically if I could find a ladder of bodies, I had a good chance of chewing up most of the opposing infantry, killing the caster. In MKIII this is given exclusively to Madrak2, with a minor tweak that it cannot effect warlocks, which isn't a big deal, since I usually didn't use Madrak to kill the opposing force anyway. None of which is to say that the new Madrak 1 is a bad caster, or lacking in any way. He might just be one of our strongest. WTF?
4) Kriel Warriors lost Prayer. So Kriel Warriors have been one of my favorites for a long time. The addition of prayers gave them a nice boost in the versitity department, and I never heard anybody complaining about them. In MKIII they lose prays, gain Unyielding. Finally the cabers go back to being single use per turn, on a P+S Weapon that's basically the same as a Fennblade. WTF?
Anyway, just me ranting a bit, if anybody knows some official, or unofficial rationales I'm very interested. There have been a number of serious improvements to Trolls. I really like the Dual Attack additions, Far Strike on the Bomber, and adjustments to the Champs. I feel like some of the less played models, like the Swamp Troll are pretty interesting again.
|
|
|
Post by elricaltovilla on Dec 2, 2017 3:42:30 GMT
Madrak1 just got a rework and has become quite threatening. He gained a cost 3 spell called Even Ground that gives FF models in control +2 DEF and steady. He also got jackhammer to max out his beasts attacks and Guided Hand works with fennblades now. His feat fully heals 5 wound infantry and heals beasts for a significant amount making him great at utilizing our elite units like champs and warders. I've used him in two games so far and gotten many complaints about how good he is. It's nice to hear someone else do the Female Doging in the game for once.
|
|
|
Post by greenjello on Dec 2, 2017 4:01:29 GMT
Madrak1 just got a rework and has become quite threatening. Oh sure, I just don't understand why he need to be changed. I was happy with him the way that he was. I don't see how changing that really opens up the design space, or fixes any sort of OP or NPE behavior.
|
|
|
Post by elricaltovilla on Dec 2, 2017 4:13:13 GMT
Madrak1 just got a rework and has become quite threatening. Oh sure, I just don't understand why he need to be changed. I was happy with him the way that he was. I don't see how changing that really opens up the design space, or fixes any sort of OP or NPE behavior. Because they changed him from how he was in Mark II by giving his feat to Madrak2, which made Madrak1 terribad. Now Madrak1 and Madrak2 are both good, but one likes elite multi wound infantry and attrition play, while the other likes pseudo weaponmaster spam single wound infantry and high power aggression. Idk why they did it. They didn't hire me when I applied for Pagani's job so I have no idea what goes on over there.
|
|
|
Post by Big Fat Troll on Dec 2, 2017 8:57:34 GMT
1) The Blitzer has Dual Attack and can Trample, the Slag has assault, the Pyre went up to RNG 10 and the Bomber has Far Strike as well. It also costs 1 as opposed to 2. The Bomber is very expensive at 19 points, yet we still run them in pairs often enough, as it is one of the best shooting heavies in either game.
2) The Mauler is the second-best warbeast in its class and was in 1st place until the Grymkin added Skin & Moans. People complain about how we can't go without them yet can't risk sending a 15-point heavy into melee when the solution to that problem can often be as simple as running them in pairs. It does irk me that the Pyre's animus is self-only and the Slag effectively has none, but there really are ways around this. We also have the Brawler now, who is pretty strong on his own, especially with Ragnor.
3) Madrak 1 is basically a different caster now and Madrak 2 was broken early in Mk3 specifically because he could surf through 20 doods into the enemy caster with three times his full stack of Fury.
4) Models are supposed to specialize more in Mk3. So Fenns jam in fast and clear screens while Kriels are a screen. They can actually be a very effective speedbump or tarpit with the Madraks, Horgle 2 or Ragnor.
I think the idea with the Blitzer and Swamp Troll is that they offer a little trickiness when our threat ranges are otherwise pretty linear and predictable. It's just that the Blitzer is in a bad spot in terms of its point cost pricing it out of a niche. Sure it can do all kinds of neat things, but for the same cost or less, the Brawler has better damage output, the Earthborn has better utility, and the Mauler has both. For only 3 points more, the Bomber has a much better gun in almost every situation. I even call this "the Blitzer problem," when a model is appealing in terms of fluff or fun shenanigans, but it's better to just take the more reliable option.
|
|
|
Post by grabsnikk on Dec 2, 2017 11:14:14 GMT
The short answer is that PP made a lot of changes to Trolls in the transition from Mk2 to Mk3. Some of these changes were good while many were bad or completely unecessary.
Unfortunately they did not give us reasons for these changes and we are still wondering about them now.
|
|
|
Post by greenjello on Dec 2, 2017 14:04:13 GMT
1) The Blitzer has Dual Attack and can Trample, Can you explain this? I thought that if you trampled that removed all your initial attacks, including the ranged attacks. True, I was missing that. OTOH, the Slag lost it's second shot.... Good point on the Pyre. You're correct the Mauler is nice, I just miss the flexibility that having three different possible buffs to pick from. The whole Madrak1 thing becomes even more confusing when I hear that the original change made Madrak2 busted.
|
|
mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
|
Post by mazog on Dec 2, 2017 14:52:38 GMT
Just be glad you weren't here before we went through the CID! Things were much worse before. The slag also got erosion on it's claws, so with only a little help out can one round a heavy jack. Some of our models hit the jackpot, too, like Grissel2, who doesn't have to pay for the second and third shot and has no restrictions on shot type now. She become one of our most dangerous assassins for models that can be knocked down.
|
|
joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
|
Post by joedj on Dec 2, 2017 15:13:07 GMT
Slag and Pyre losing the +2 melee damage animi was a serious MK3 blow to their utility, and to the options for diverse TB army builds. Thus the prevalence of PoD builds, extending to the present day. Pyre is now often a Fire Eaters 'attachment', and Slag, while still a good/cheap anti warjack throwaway or lure, effectively has no animus. (Wish corrosion was cumulative, i.e. 3 cont corrosion tokens? Three maintenance checks, followed by three point of damage if persisting. #designspace open!) Cynical thoughts: Consider that now there is design space for the now released Northkin Elder's +2 cold damage aura (alternative KSB attachments were bandied about in TB forums throughout MK2). There is TB design space for a light warbeast again to provide a damage buff to our other warbeasts, or combat solos (solos usually only taken as 'free' options in Theme). The number of already existing TB (Cryx and Skorne also) models that have been modified through CID process is significant, suggesting two things to me: 1. The initial MK3 changes were not adequately tested and 2. If you like the overall WM/Hordes rule set, I do, patience will net you 'all new' models from the existing ones you already own! As of Dec 2017, TB (Existing in MK2) models modified by CID rules changes since MK3 first released: Madrak1 <- love this change Madrak2 Borka2 (twice!) Champions EBDT (cost only) Mulg. <- love this change Pyre (cost only) War Wagon Others? Also as keyword abilities change, so can models roles/utility. eg I'm currently watching Unyielding CID proposed changes...
|
|
mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
|
Post by mazog on Dec 2, 2017 18:13:50 GMT
Rok dropped two points.
|
|
|
Post by greenjello on Dec 2, 2017 18:32:20 GMT
Nevermind server ate my reply.
|
|
|
Post by Trollock on Dec 2, 2017 19:24:33 GMT
So maybe this is old news for regular forum hounds, but I've been taking a fairly long break starting around 3 years ago, before the edition change. I paid a bit of attention, and feel like I knew where the OP stuff was in Trolls, not that it seemed like there was a lot. I also understand that some things needed to change to open up the design space. However, I have a laundry list of changes that don't make sense to me. I'm hoping that somebody can fill me in, or at least has a theory, since this is mostly WTF. Also if I'm missing other baffling changes, feel free to add. 1) Far Strike is now SELF only. So for a long time Troll beasts and units had their range cut down severly, and usually the rationale was thought to be Far Strike. (Since we have only 1 warlock with Snipe). Now we'd had an edition change, and we're still getting units, like the Northkin Raiders who have RNG8. For that matter the Highwaymen also have RNG8, and the Slag Troll also at RNG8. Why haven't some of these ranges been increased with the change to Far Strike. 2) Pyre/Slag Troll Animus. So it used to be you'd bring these beasts to buff damage on our mostly pillow fisted beasts. Now you're limited to Rok and the Mauler (and I guess the Mountain King), and you pretty much have to bring them in every list if you want to have beasts that can crack armor. It also makes Horgle1 far less useful. So it seems to be a change to something that I never heard a complaint about, that reduces the usefulness of a few models, and makes list building more restricted, rather than less. Further they reduced the Fury on some beasts, and none of them got an increase in their P+S. WTF? 3) Madrak1 loses his feat. So I used to play Madrak1 quite a bit in MKII. He had an interesting make it or break it feat. Basically if I could find a ladder of bodies, I had a good chance of chewing up most of the opposing infantry, killing the caster. In MKIII this is given exclusively to Madrak2, with a minor tweak that it cannot effect warlocks, which isn't a big deal, since I usually didn't use Madrak to kill the opposing force anyway. None of which is to say that the new Madrak 1 is a bad caster, or lacking in any way. He might just be one of our strongest. WTF? 4) Kriel Warriors lost Prayer. So Kriel Warriors have been one of my favorites for a long time. The addition of prayers gave them a nice boost in the versitity department, and I never heard anybody complaining about them. In MKIII they lose prays, gain Unyielding. Finally the cabers go back to being single use per turn, on a P+S Weapon that's basically the same as a Fennblade. WTF? Anyway, just me ranting a bit, if anybody knows some official, or unofficial rationales I'm very interested. There have been a number of serious improvements to Trolls. I really like the Dual Attack additions, Far Strike on the Bomber, and adjustments to the Champs. I feel like some of the less played models, like the Swamp Troll are pretty interesting again. Many of the changes seem very strange i know, but many of them are fine and even good! first, make sure you have the updated cards, either from war room, or for free here: cards.privateerpress.com/1) This is a good change over all. No longer fo you have to tow an impaler around to play bombers. The impaler is bad, but the bomber is super good now. You can no longer buff warriros with animi, but that was a change to the entire game. Just live with it 2) These two beasts were gutted at a glance, but they are still playable in some lists. They are no longer buff bots though and need to be included for what they do, not for how they help other things. The Pyre troll animus is really nice on Borka 2, but over all it is bad. Slag animus is the worst in the game, and no one knows why. Just live with it i guess. Just note that Erosion now works on its melee attacks too though! 3) You are looking at the old (unplayable) version of madrak 1. Check the new cards. He is STRONG. 4) Kriels seem bad, and they ARE. However, they are very cheap. They do see play in many lists. They are way worse than before, but they are still pretty good. The cabers and attachment are really bad though, and no one knows why. Kriels are now only played "as is". Over all, the balance between factions are WAY better now than in MK2. The balance between models in the same faction is still not total, but theme forces means that almost everything has a place. There are a few things that are bad, but it is WAY better than in MK2 too. Play some games, check around here for list inspiration and enjoy. IMO, the game is the best it has ever been by a long shot!
|
|
|
Post by grabsnikk on Dec 2, 2017 20:19:08 GMT
Also Gunnbjorn was unplayable garbage back in Mk2. In Mk3 he was reworked with an actual feat and is quite strong.
|
|
joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
|
Post by joedj on Dec 2, 2017 21:40:04 GMT
Also Gunnbjorn was unplayable garbage back in Mk2. In Mk3 he was reworked with an actual feat and is quite strong. Even though there is no fluff to justify his new amazing conferred immunity to ranged damage!
My MK2 memory is fading...Besides Feat, did he change at all from MK2 to MK3? Different spells/abilities? Nope.
But Explosivo did. Another 'global' spell change that aided his competitiveness. Viola, 'old' models are new!
(Skinner got Weaponmaster! )
|
|
|
Post by grabsnikk on Dec 2, 2017 21:53:38 GMT
Also Gunnbjorn was unplayable garbage back in Mk2. In Mk3 he was reworked with an actual feat and is quite strong. Even though there is no fluff to justify his new amazing conferred immunity to ranged damage!
My MK2 memory is fading...Besides Feat, did he change at all from MK2 to MK3? Different spells/abilities? Nope.
But Explosivo did. Another 'global' spell change that aided his competitiveness. Viola, 'old' models are new!
(Skinner got Weaponmaster! )
In addition to the feat changes he gained Field Marshal: Kill Shot, Explosivo Changed for the better although I still can't understand why it is a Cost 1 upkeep. He also benefited from the fact that Bombers gained Far Strike and gained Mat6.
|
|