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Post by macdaddy on Dec 5, 2017 14:41:13 GMT
Krueger in Bones seems like it would be pretty good, Geomancy gives you lots of TKs and Gallows, which gives you threat extension, a mat buff and allows for flexibility of activations. His feat and Rebuke also allow for control, and in Bones you get access to Sentry Stones which are still great with infantry making a comeback, and blackclad wayfarers that provide much needed fury efficiency for the wolds and further threat extension Honestly IMO Bones is our best theme. Like I said, our faction isn't trash, we just need a better living beast and infantry stable.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Dec 5, 2017 15:07:36 GMT
Krueger in Bones seems like it would be pretty good, Geomancy gives you lots of TKs and Gallows, which gives you threat extension, a mat buff and allows for flexibility of activations. His feat and Rebuke also allow for control, and in Bones you get access to Sentry Stones which are still great with infantry making a comeback, and blackclad wayfarers that provide much needed fury efficiency for the wolds and further threat extension Honestly IMO Bones is our best theme. Like I said, our faction isn't trash, we just need a better living beast and infantry stable. Yeah Circle living beasts need some love, the Satyr's are cheap but don't hit hard enough, the Wolves hit harder but are crazy expensive
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Post by elshinare on Dec 5, 2017 20:01:37 GMT
I would hope that sooner rather than later they will CiD the whole faction. We have a good spam list of 8 points or less models, but most seem to fail when compared to other factions with similar costed lights. I'd guess warp wolves will drop a couple points. I would like a 10 point Satyr although I doubt that'll happen.
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Post by macdaddy on Dec 5, 2017 20:12:53 GMT
I would hope that sooner rather than later they will CiD the whole faction. We have a good spam list of 8 points or less models, but most seem to fail when compared to other factions with similar costed lights. I'd guess warp wolves will drop a couple points. I would like a 10 point Satyr although I doubt that'll happen. really its just warpwolves, satyrs, the winter argus, the rotterhorn, and a handful of units and solos. We don't need anything as drastic as what skorne got. Units: -blood pack -woldstalkers -mist riders -druids of orboros -arguably wolf riders Solos: -Lord of the feast...good lord he is terrible -reeve hunter -tharn ravager white mane -tharn wolf rider champion (why was she not just a dragoon...and why is she 8 points) Otherwise I think we have acceptable options.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Dec 5, 2017 20:50:20 GMT
I would hope that sooner rather than later they will CiD the whole faction. We have a good spam list of 8 points or less models, but most seem to fail when compared to other factions with similar costed lights. I'd guess warp wolves will drop a couple points. I would like a 10 point Satyr although I doubt that'll happen. really its just warpwolves, satyrs, the winter argus, the rotterhorn, and a handful of units and solos. We don't need anything as drastic as what skorne got. Units: -blood pack -woldstalkers -mist riders -druids of orboros -arguably wolf riders Solos: -Lord of the feast...good lord he is terrible -reeve hunter -tharn ravager white mane -tharn wolf rider champion (why was she not just a dragoon...and why is she 8 points) Otherwise I think we have acceptable options. I would add the Razorwing, Brennos, Ghetorix (may have been included under warpwolves) Storm Raptor, and arguably the Gorax (SO much worse than a battle boar...) to your list. That makes for more than 2/3 of our beasts needing changes.
As for units and solos, I think you can draw a line between the models that NEED help (most of the ones you listed) and the ones that are just subpar, mildly disappointing, and could use a tweak. To that list, I'd add:
Units -Ravagers (they should either hit a bit harder - *cough* brutal charge *cough* - or be a little more durable). -Death Wolves (should start with a Heart Token) -Shifting Stone UA (outside of specific fog of war or woldwrath builds, why would you ever take him?) -Nuala -Skinwalkers (not nearly tanky enough for how slow they are/how pricy they are. Compare to Cetrati for an actually good tarpit unit.)
Solos -Gallows Grove (should have distant deployment to let it actually function as an offensive arc node/anti-tough piece occasionally)
-White Mane (Veteran Leader should just say 'Tharn')
-Reeve Hunter (I am confused as to what this model is supposed to do, beyond be a cheaper and worse way to trigger war wolves than reeves)
-Wilder (nowhere near as interesting or compelling as other factions warlock/caster attachments)
-Morraig: Virtually never worth 8 points. Should either drop in points, become a free option in theme, or regain weapon master or rapid strike.
-Una1: Just why? Needs long leash as a field marshal, and/or spells that DON'T make her beasts fly out of her control area.
IMO we absolutely could use a Skorne level errata. about 1/4-1/3 of our stuff is unplayable trash, another 1/3 to 1/2 is underwhelming, and we have a few strong options propping us up. Circle's internal balance will be years in fixing at the current (glacial) rate of CID.
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Post by streetpizza on Dec 5, 2017 21:55:20 GMT
For people complaining about the ravagers and skinwalkers I would ask you to instead consider that these units are actually fine for the point values. What circle's real problem is, is that we don't have good infantry support casters to buff them up like other factions. Morvahna1/2 are the best we've got as a dedicated infantry support caster and in both incarnations she's missing the key aspect that infantry casters need. Proper delivery mechanisms and damage buffing.
For Morv1 regrowth is too easy for opponents to circumvent and its utility is severely hampered by the sack combat action change that recursion elements have seen. Tack on rampant RFP abilities from theme forces and she's just too risky to put on the field.
Morv2 has all of the same draw backs as Morv1 except that her core mechanic doesn't even work anymore. Re-rolls would be an acceptable damage buff except now they're too hard to get since they're tied to her anemic command stat. Tack on the inability to do cool things with her feat now and she's just a depressing mess of a caster.
I do actually think that the simplest fix for Morvahna 1 and 2 is to do it through Brennos. Give him the ability to "shepherd" faction infantry model.units giving them +2 str as a spell and Morvahna's stock shoots way way up thanks to theme forces (bonus buff to a struggling secret masters theme force).
If nothing else from the Tharn CID I will be lobbying to see those two casters and their character beast go into the mix along with our new tharn lady. Morvahna is the savior of the tharn after all. Lets see them save her for a change.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Dec 5, 2017 22:17:47 GMT
For people complaining about the ravagers and skinwalkers I would ask you to instead consider that these units are actually fine for the point values. What circle's real problem is, is that we don't have good infantry support casters to buff them up like other factions. Morvahna1/2 are the best we've got as a dedicated infantry support caster and in both incarnations she's missing the key aspect that infantry casters need. Proper delivery mechanisms and damage buffing. For Morv1 regrowth is too easy for opponents to circumvent and its utility is severely hampered by the sack combat action change that recursion elements have seen. Tack on rampant RFP abilities from theme forces and she's just too risky to put on the field. Morv2 has all of the same draw backs as Morv1 except that her core mechanic doesn't even work anymore. Re-rolls would be an acceptable damage buff except now they're too hard to get since they're tied to her anemic command stat. Tack on the inability to do cool things with her feat now and she's just a depressing mess of a caster. I do actually think that the simplest fix for Morvahna 1 and 2 is to do it through Brennos. Give him the ability to "shepherd" faction infantry model.units giving them +2 str as a spell and Morvahna's stock shoots way way up thanks to theme forces (bonus buff to a struggling secret masters theme force). If nothing else from the Tharn CID I will be lobbying to see those two casters and their character beast go into the mix along with our new tharn lady. Morvahna is the savior of the tharn after all. Lets see them save her for a change. Skinwalkers, at least, do not stack up particularly well to other options.
Compare them to Cetrati (who are also in a faction with TONS of buff stacking, between agonizer, krea, TyComm, caster buffs, etc.)
Cetrati are tougher against shooting (20 Arm in shield wall) Cetrati are tougher against charge attacks (set defense) which are usually necessary to crack their armor with infantry In the best case scenario (stuck in against a high P+S attacker) Cetrati are about as durable (Arm 20 vs. 18, 5 boxes tough vs. 8 boxes) Cetrati have a better UA (contributes more in combat, Granted: Spell Ward is obscene on a tough heavy infantry unit, Tactics Steady is amazing on a tough unit) Cetrati hit harder natively (PS 11 WM vs. PS 12 Gang)
All that in a faction that has ready access to tons of stackable speed, defense, armor, and damage/hit buffs.
It's definitely not just a lack of caster support, though I'll grant that's a large part of the issue.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Dec 6, 2017 5:37:12 GMT
For people complaining about the ravagers and skinwalkers I would ask you to instead consider that these units are actually fine for the point values. What circle's real problem is, is that we don't have good infantry support casters to buff them up like other factions. Morvahna1/2 are the best we've got as a dedicated infantry support caster and in both incarnations she's missing the key aspect that infantry casters need. Proper delivery mechanisms and damage buffing. For Morv1 regrowth is too easy for opponents to circumvent and its utility is severely hampered by the sack combat action change that recursion elements have seen. Tack on rampant RFP abilities from theme forces and she's just too risky to put on the field. Morv2 has all of the same draw backs as Morv1 except that her core mechanic doesn't even work anymore. Re-rolls would be an acceptable damage buff except now they're too hard to get since they're tied to her anemic command stat. Tack on the inability to do cool things with her feat now and she's just a depressing mess of a caster. I do actually think that the simplest fix for Morvahna 1 and 2 is to do it through Brennos. Give him the ability to "shepherd" faction infantry model.units giving them +2 str as a spell and Morvahna's stock shoots way way up thanks to theme forces (bonus buff to a struggling secret masters theme force). If nothing else from the Tharn CID I will be lobbying to see those two casters and their character beast go into the mix along with our new tharn lady. Morvahna is the savior of the tharn after all. Lets see them save her for a change. Skinwalkers, at least, do not stack up particularly well to other options.
Compare them to Cetrati (who are also in a faction with TONS of buff stacking, between agonizer, krea, TyComm, caster buffs, etc.)
Cetrati are tougher against shooting (20 Arm in shield wall) Cetrati are tougher against charge attacks (set defense) which are usually necessary to crack their armor with infantry In the best case scenario (stuck in against a high P+S attacker) Cetrati are about as durable (Arm 20 vs. 18, 5 boxes tough vs. 8 boxes) Cetrati have a better UA (contributes more in combat, Granted: Spell Ward is obscene on a tough heavy infantry unit, Tactics Steady is amazing on a tough unit) Cetrati hit harder natively (PS 11 WM vs. PS 12 Gang)
All that in a faction that has ready access to tons of stackable speed, defense, armor, and damage/hit buffs.
It's definitely not just a lack of caster support, though I'll grant that's a large part of the issue.
that's not how point cost is or should be calculated. "because the faction has good buffs their pieces should cost more" is the jist of what you said x.x; Cetrati are armor 16 with 5 boxes and an ability that can increase their armor, yet denies them the ability to run. They have crap defense, combined arms, tough, and set defense. They also have weapon master and 7 mat. Skinwalkers have same speed, 1 less mat, 1 more P+S, average defense, 16 armor. They have an armor buff ability, pathfinder on the charge, hyper regeneration, and 8 boxes Cetrati cost 18 pts Skinwalkers cost 15 pts Skinwalkers attachment gives gang along with a mini-feat for the cost of 4. Cetrati attachment gives Sacred Ward when he's on the field and steady with no mini-feat. His weapon has blessed, magical, and 2 more P+S. His cost is 6 Cetrati with attachment = 24 pts Skinwalkers with attachment = 19 pts Basically, the point gap between them is enough to fit a powerful solo, ya know, like the ones you keep talking about Skorne having to buff them, yet can never afford them x.x; TBH, if skinwalkers could get +2 arm while base to base with each other instead of unyeilding, I'd greatly prefer them to the Cetrati. Skorne almost never plays Cetrati, as we can use Karax + UA + Tyrant Commander for a similar price. When you have to worry about around 14-20 pts missing from every list just on support bloat to make your army worth a damn, we can't spend points on expensive units. We'd rather spam cheeper units that do relatively the same thing and spend the extra points on building the actual list rather than the baggage. circle tends to forget that their beasts average speed 6 and, thus, do not really need much of a mobility boost, or that their warpwolves already include similar buffs to what skorne could give to their titans for a similar price (SIMILAR, warpwolves are still overpriced) If you are having trouble taking down Skorne, use a speedy sacrificial unit to take out our agonizers, basilisk kreas, and beast tamers. Without them, everything of ours is overpriced, and our lists only run at half efficiency. Pro-skorne players are so successful because they can keep those specific models from being taken out, that's about it.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Dec 6, 2017 6:30:11 GMT
Skinwalkers, at least, do not stack up particularly well to other options.
Compare them to Cetrati (who are also in a faction with TONS of buff stacking, between agonizer, krea, TyComm, caster buffs, etc.)
Cetrati are tougher against shooting (20 Arm in shield wall) Cetrati are tougher against charge attacks (set defense) which are usually necessary to crack their armor with infantry In the best case scenario (stuck in against a high P+S attacker) Cetrati are about as durable (Arm 20 vs. 18, 5 boxes tough vs. 8 boxes) Cetrati have a better UA (contributes more in combat, Granted: Spell Ward is obscene on a tough heavy infantry unit, Tactics Steady is amazing on a tough unit) Cetrati hit harder natively (PS 11 WM vs. PS 12 Gang)
All that in a faction that has ready access to tons of stackable speed, defense, armor, and damage/hit buffs.
It's definitely not just a lack of caster support, though I'll grant that's a large part of the issue.
that's not how point cost is or should be calculated. "because the faction has good buffs their pieces should cost more" is the jist of what you said x.x; Cetrati are armor 16 with 5 boxes and an ability that can increase their armor, yet denies them the ability to run. They have crap defense, combined arms, tough, and set defense. They also have weapon master and 7 mat. Skinwalkers have same speed, 1 less mat, 1 more P+S, average defense, 16 armor. They have an armor buff ability, pathfinder on the charge, hyper regeneration, and 8 boxes Cetrati cost 18 pts Skinwalkers cost 15 pts Skinwalkers attachment gives gang along with a mini-feat for the cost of 4. Cetrati attachment gives Sacred Ward when he's on the field and steady with no mini-feat. His weapon has blessed, magical, and 2 more P+S. His cost is 6 Cetrati with attachment = 24 pts Skinwalkers with attachment = 19 pts Basically, the point gap between them is enough to fit a powerful solo, ya know, like the ones you keep talking about Skorne having to buff them, yet can never afford them x.x; TBH, if skinwalkers could get +2 arm while base to base with each other instead of unyeilding, I'd greatly prefer them to the Cetrati. Skorne almost never plays Cetrati, as we can use Karax + UA + Tyrant Commander for a similar price. When you have to worry about around 14-20 pts missing from every list just on support bloat to make your army worth a damn, we can't spend points on expensive units. We'd rather spam cheeper units that do relatively the same thing and spend the extra points on building the actual list rather than the baggage. circle tends to forget that their beasts average speed 6 and, thus, do not really need much of a mobility boost, or that their warpwolves already include similar buffs to what skorne could give to their titans for a similar price (SIMILAR, warpwolves are still overpriced) If you are having trouble taking down Skorne, use a speedy sacrificial unit to take out our agonizers, basilisk kreas, and beast tamers. Without them, everything of ours is overpriced, and our lists only run at half efficiency. Pro-skorne players are so successful because they can keep those specific models from being taken out, that's about it. I'm not particularly having trouble with Skorne. Circle excels at dismantling support-oriented bricks by taking out key pieces. But it's utterly asinine to claim that you don't or shouldn't consider the power level of units in light of the buffs (casters and non-caster) available in faction. It's every bit as asinine as the inverse claim (which I also hear a lot) that you can't compare units across factions. You can, you do, and it's no exaggeration to claim that Skorne has better infantry support than Circle does, period (not a hard claim, admittedly, because Circle has next to none.) In your comparison of the two units, you fail to mention that the Cetrati are unit size 6 to the Skinwalkers 5. The two units are exactly the same price/model, it's only the UAs that differ, and to be perfectly honest, both will likely be taken for free anyway (at least Vorkesh will, being as he's 6 points). Even unbuffed, the Cetrati are significantly harder to remove than Skinwalkers. Yes, they have to shieldwall to do it, but they do their damn job of getting into a zone and just not dying without significant enemy commitment, period. Skinwalkers don't do that. They can get INTO the zone easily with the help of an infantry support piece nearly every list will bring. And if you bring the support, they become near on impossible to remove without first removing said support. I'm not saying the Cetrati are over the top or OP. They're not. But they ARE a unit that has a role, has a job, and is capable of performing that role without substantial support from the army...but performs it much better with support from the army. Skinwalkers are a unit that can't perform it's role particularly well, and can be made...passable...at their role by some of the (relatively unimpressive) buffs Circle can give them. That's the difference.
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Post by macdaddy on Dec 6, 2017 9:54:10 GMT
The thing is, I still think streetpizza is right. The majority of our “Meh” options are that way because we lack decent in faction support. The best infantry casters in faction that are not Morv: Baldur 1: No Knockdown, blast immunity, a Str and Arm Buff, And a feat plus rapid growth that helps on the approach. Krueger1: Massed Def skew, And a Infantry mulching Buff. Bloodweavers with reach and e leaps....mmmm Una2: Hof is a turd polisher and she can take enough Gryphons in her BG, to still leverage her feat without burning too many in Theme points for free stuff. And...that’s about it. Grayle is ok, but let’s be honest he does not really do anything for his units. He has Death March which is cute. But storm Rager is mostly so he can do Work personally and sprint away, and his Feat is....kind of ok at delivering the army. Stealth is so hit or miss match up wise. Tactician wolf sworn is cool and all but nothing exceptional. Do you notice anything here? Infantry casters need to be able to do 3 things: 1:Deliver the army or enable a faster delivery 2: Increase the Armies Damage in some meaningful way. Preferably in the P+S department since our infantry is already good at killing infantry. 3: Increase survivability: Our Infantry are notably squishy. Skinwalkers need an arm buff to be worth thier cost IME. Arm 18 on approach or 20 while engaged is the only way they will do enough. I find with gang, if you can up thier Damage they acceptably murder or cripple a jack/beast. Mat 8 P+S 16 is legit and unlike shieldwallunits they chan charge and still get up to Arm 20. and do not need to be B2B. oncomingstorm skinwalkers are not inherently bad. Sure I would like an extra point of arm or Pow. But I’ve used them enough to see that all they really need is a caster that can deliver them and provide them an arm buff. If baldur1 wasn’t Control 12, I think he’d see more play in devourers host. He does the most for infantry in our faction IMO. It’s also worth noting other factions have solos that provide meaningful buffs to the army. Circle does not. The ravager shaman and night witch our the best options we have. We don’t have a solo or solos that are dedicated to supporting our units like skorne, trolls, and warmachine factions have. While this keeps us from having support bloat, I think it adds to the perception that our infantry are lackluster
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Dec 6, 2017 10:43:28 GMT
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