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Post by finnigan2004 on Dec 4, 2017 0:50:30 GMT
So, Cirle is always my first choice, but if I want to play beast heavy Hordes, what is the best non-Legion way forward? Trolls, Circle, or titan herd Skorne are all acceptable. Grymkin, no question there. The existence of the neigh slayers and the piggybacks offend my sensibilities as a wargamer . I am going to pretend that Grymkin do not exist. Even when I have to play against them-- I'll pretend it is just a bad dream my 'caster had, and then move on.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Dec 4, 2017 1:26:58 GMT
demonic See I think the only 2 lights that need changes are the roterhorn and winter argus. Literally every other light has a place and is powerful. Primal is actually excellent for our light beasts. Consider Kaya 3 can make Argi Hit at Pow 17 Mat 11 with primal. That’s Pow 21 with a combo strike...pretty darn impressive if you ask me...don’t get me started on Scarsfells. 11 Point Warpwolves?...what? Stalkers just need Mat 7 I think that would make them worth 19 points. Ferals need to be 16 points. Purebloods need to be 15 Ghetorix should probably be 20 and gain relentless charge. 11 Point Warpwolves is just stupid overpowered haha. it's always great when people "don't read good" and try to make an abrasive statement afterwards. As they are now, I stated that the average cost for any warpwolf should be closer to 15 pts. I figured this out by taking the Crusader, a rather blank sheet heavy warjack, and then calculating how many additional points need to be added in order to achieve what a warpwolf has. As far as stats go, they average out to be pretty close. As far as the power of their warping abilities, it's the exact same thing as what a choir does, in which 1 choir member costs about 1 point. Thus Crusader + 1 choir member = 11 pts. However, when you include the animus you gain access too you are looking at 2-3 additional points (13-14pts). Then include that the warpwolves all have 4 fury, not 3 like the crusader, and you have a 14-15pt base for any current, unaltered warpwolf.
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Post by macdaddy on Dec 4, 2017 1:52:18 GMT
so before counting their animi, they should actually cost 11 pts x.O; An animus like primal I can see increasing their cost by 2 or 3 but that's still not even bringing them up to 15 pts. I read fine my statement was not abrasive in any way. Not sure why you felt that way... Even discounting animi 11 points is silly. 15 points for a Mat7 beast with 3 initials and primal even seems to cheap.
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Post by jisidro on Dec 4, 2017 10:06:39 GMT
Compare Molik Karn to a Warpwolf stalker then... see how it goes.
As to circle in general... Just won Blood&Gear in Alberta, Canada with
Theme: Call of the Wild
Kaya the Wildheart - WB: +27 - Shadowhorn Satyr - PC: 12 - Shadowhorn Satyr - PC: 12 - Shadowhorn Satyr - PC: 12 - Shadowhorn Satyr - PC: 12 - Scarsfell Griffon - PC: 8 - Scarsfell Griffon - PC: 8 - Scarsfell Griffon - PC: 8 - Scarsfell Griffon - PC: 8 - Scarsfell Griffon - PC: 8 - Gorax Rager - PC: 7 - Gorax Rager - PC: 7
Blackclad Wayfarer - PC: 0 Blackclad Wayfarer - PC: 0
Shifting Stones - Leader & 2 Grunts: 0 Shifting Stones - Leader & 2 Grunts: 0
Theme: Secret Masters
Una the Skyhunter - WB: +29 - Scarsfell Griffon - PC: 8 - Scarsfell Griffon - PC: 8 - Scarsfell Griffon - PC: 8 - Scarsfell Griffon - PC: 8 - Scarsfell Griffon - PC: 8 - Scarsfell Griffon - PC: 8 - Gorax Rager - PC: 7 - Gorax Rager - PC: 7
Blackclad Wayfarer - PC: 0 Blackclad Wayfarer - PC: 0
Druid Mist Riders - Leader & 4 Grunts: 20 Druid Mist Riders - Leader & 4 Grunts: 20 Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew - Leader & 1 Grunt: 2
Theme: The Bones of Orboros
Baldur the Stonesoul - WB: +30 - Megalith - PC: 20 - Woldwarden - PC: 14 - Woldwarden - PC: 14 - Woldwatcher - PC: 8 - Woldwatcher - PC: 8 - Woldwatcher - PC: 8 - Woldwatcher - PC: 8
Blackclad Wayfarer - PC: 0 Blackclad Wayfarer - PC: 0 Blackclad Stoneshaper - PC: 0 Blackclad Stoneshaper - PC: 3 Blackclad Stoneshaper - PC: 3 Eilish Garrity, the Occultist - PC: 5
Sentry Stone & Mannikins - Leader & 3 Grunts: 5 Sentry Stone & Mannikins - Leader & 3 Grunts: 5 Shifting Stones - Leader & 2 Grunts: 3
Played Kaya three times, Una twice, and Baldur once.
And a Polish Masters with:
Circle Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Call of the Wild (Una 2) Una the Skyhunter [+29] - Gorax Rager [7] - Gorax Rager [7] - Pureblood Warpwolf [17] - Pureblood Warpwolf [17] - Scarsfell Griffon [8] - Scarsfell Griffon [8] - Scarsfell Griffon [8] - Scarsfell Griffon [8] - Scarsfell Griffon [8] - Scarsfell Griffon [8] - Scarsfell Griffon [8] - Druid Wilder [0(4)] Blackclad Wayfarer [0(4)] Blackclad Wayfarer [0(4)] Shifting Stones [0(3)] Circle Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Bones of Orboros (Baldur 2) Baldur the Stonesoul [+30] - Megalith [20] - Woldwrath [37] - Woldwyrd [9] - Woldwyrd [9] Blackclad Stoneshaper [0(3)] Blackclad Stoneshaper [3] Blackclad Wayfarer [0(4)] Blackclad Wayfarer [0(4)] Gallows Grove [2] Shifting Stones [3] Shifting Stones [3] Celestial Fulcrum [19]
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Post by streetpizza on Dec 4, 2017 14:37:35 GMT
For warpwolf pricing I think it should be something closer to this:
Feral - 15pts (simple beat stick with decent damage out put but serious defensive and mobility limitations. His point cost should be the bridge between goats and more utility based wolves)
Pureblood - 16 pts (mobile gun platform with average melee output and one of the most sought after animi in the game)
Stalker - 17 or 18pts (excellent beat stick with infantry removal capability combined with good mobility and defensive tricks. Premium in every sense of the word except accuracy. Leave him at mat 6 since buffs have to mean something)
Gehtorix - 19 pts (if Loki is 19 then that's where this guy should sit seeing as he's definitely not more valuable than true WW king. He's a pretty simple beat stick with no mobility boost out side of Kromac. Armor sucks without the animus and that's a big draw back. If he's going to stay 21 pts then return unyielding and leave the animus as is. Hell, make unyielding a warp so that there's some counter play. Make him that hard to remove. Also love the idea of relentless charge.)
Loki - 19pts (Perfect in every way and this should be the benchmark for quality in our faction.)
Heck while I'm at it lets do goats to:
Shadowhorn - 12 pts (already pretty damn good but could use +1 str and pathfinder)
Gnarlhorn - 12 pts (not bad for the cost but give him the +1 str treatment and pathfinder and reconsider the animus)
Riphorn - 13 pts (+1 str and pathfinder, at this cost and damage with pathfinder you would seriously consider him over a feral. Especially if you already have a feral in the list. Suddenly the goats + gorax combo becomes a real competitor to just always throwing a feral into lists)
Brennos - ?? just overhaul him completely. His concept as is isn't working and he needs a reset. Personnally if we really want him to see play I would start by giving him three interesting spells - +2 str for model/unit warrior models - Pathfinder on a stick for our heavies if they won't add that natively to the goats, or some kind of protection from magic ability (*cough* counter spell *cough cough*) - Keep the attack spell as is
If none of the changes were to be considered then drop them all 2 pts and call it a day. This is the lazy approach though and I would rather they become a more tactically compelling option instead.
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Post by macdaddy on Dec 4, 2017 14:53:00 GMT
streetpizzaI actually feel, even with the gun, the pureblood should be cheaper than the feral. The poor guy really struggles to kill other heavies. I actually think the shadowhorn is fine. Pathfinder seems more than enough to round him out. I agree wholeheartedly with the gnarlhorn changes. I also think all the riphorn needs is native pathfinder. He already can absolutely crank damage. His issue is speed 5 no pathfinder in a faction with few threat extenders and few options to hand out pathfinder. Math says with hunter mark, primal, and a misc +2 buff/debuff he does an average of 38 damage to a khador heavy. I could get behind a points drop to 13 as well, just feel he does not need a strength buff.
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daveg
Light Addition
Posts: 67
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Post by daveg on Dec 4, 2017 14:57:08 GMT
Grymkin, no question there. The existence of the neigh slayers and the piggybacks offend my sensibilities as a wargamer . I am going to pretend that Grymkin do not exist. Even when I have to play against them-- I'll pretend it is just a bad dream my 'caster had, and then move on. I'm pretty sure you could play any of the Hordes factions beast heavy but it has to be more deliberate than in MK2. Just putting in the best beasts with some small support isn't (almost) universally functional. Everything has not been explored thoroughly and the meta is still evolving both through new-ness, SR 2017, and CID. I was pretty unhappy with MK 3 when it first dropped but the combination of SR 2017, CiD, and engaging in theme use has helped. I'd also caution against too much internet reading as things can seem overblown pretty quickly. For me, the game is much more fun on the actual table vs on the internet.
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Post by wolfchild on Dec 4, 2017 15:45:12 GMT
daveg Totally agree that the game is better on the table than online. Both can give a skewed perspective, but it’s only thru actual play that u really experience the game, all this internet chatter can quickly become offensive, argumentative and / or quite negative, mostly due to the lack of tone and because many of us (myself included) find it easier to voice our complaints than our happiness. Of course Circle could be better in so many ways and if we got all our wishes then all the other factions would have more reasons to complain. We’re noy in that bad a place really, and hopefully without too much Bones skew or griffon spam, we can still be a fun and varied force to play.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Dec 4, 2017 17:35:10 GMT
I would rank the factions as such: Cryx (may change post CiD changes) Cygnar Ret Khador Skorne (arguably better than khador) Grymkin (arguably better than khador) Protectorate Convergence Trolls Mercs Circle Legion Minions (may change based on CiD changes) There is still a discrepancy for sure. But if you practice and are familiar with the meta you are playing at, you can win with any faction IMO. *Sniff Being a Legion/Minion player and my Wife playing Circle. I can say competition is always capable in a casual setting. It's tournament skews that really make things rough. Thus Wurmwood still being a favored anti-shooting option. What I will say is - take a gun or two. When melee list vs. melee list hit the table. The one with the most guns will likely keep a sizable advantage. With Eyeless Sight and plenty of boostable guns I really ruin Circle's threat range manipulation. WoldWyrds, Fulcrum, trackers, reeves, and yes even the bloodpack and Brennos can serve to force your opponent to stall on the approach. Even Megalith or Wardens with Geomancy and a strong offensive spell can do some good.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Dec 5, 2017 9:32:46 GMT
Circle is doing rather well in Poland and our WTC Circle player won all 6 of his games at the WTC (Una2 / Grayle) so it's not just a local anomaly. I agree Warpwolves and Satyrs don't appear too often in the lists, though.
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Post by macdaddy on Dec 5, 2017 13:09:44 GMT
Circle is doing rather well in Poland and our WTC Circle player won all 6 of his games at the WTC (Una2 / Grayle) so it's not just a local anomaly. I agree Warpwolves and Satyrs don't appear too often in the lists, though. That’s mostly an over abundance of 5+ Scarsfells who can trade heavies when run under Kaya3 or UNA2. I don’t want to only run Scarsfells in my BG lol. I never said Circle can’t preform. But I think we have to work harder than most factions to do as well as the people you are referencing. Was the WTC post Una nerf? I can’t remember. I think it was, regardless I think her in CotW is excellent. She is one of the best casters in the stable for sure
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Dec 5, 2017 13:12:01 GMT
I mate of mine who is a very good player is getting back into Circle, or more specifically Bradigus. Wold War II Electric Boogaloo is gonna be a thing...
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Post by macdaddy on Dec 5, 2017 13:20:18 GMT
I mate of mine who is a very good player is getting back into Circle, or more specifically Bradigus. Wold War II Electric Boogaloo is gonna be a thing... Yeah bradigus in Bones seems legit. But it will never be Wold war
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Dec 5, 2017 14:13:01 GMT
Krueger in Bones seems like it would be pretty good, Geomancy gives you lots of TKs and Gallows, which gives you threat extension, a mat buff and allows for flexibility of activations. His feat and Rebuke also allow for control, and in Bones you get access to Sentry Stones which are still great with infantry making a comeback, and blackclad wayfarers that provide much needed fury efficiency for the wolds and further threat extension
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whydak
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by whydak on Dec 5, 2017 14:17:30 GMT
Circle is doing rather well in Poland and our WTC Circle player won all 6 of his games at the WTC (Una2 / Grayle) so it's not just a local anomaly. I agree Warpwolves and Satyrs don't appear too often in the lists, though. (...) Was the WTC post Una nerf? I can’t remember. I think it was, regardless I think her in CotW is excellent. She is one of the best casters in the stable for sure Yup, WTC was loong time after Una nerf. She is still very strong but no so absurd like before.
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